Altering permadraws: Ethical or not?

I have noticed multiple times while climbing on routes with permanent quickdraws that some people are extending the draw in order to clip before a crux. There is no added danger by having a shorter draw and personally, I feel like the people who are doing this are scared of taking an extra 5 foot fall and extend the draw only for mental satisfaction. The only reason I don't like this is because it makes clipping more awkward and difficult because the draw is really low when I clip from the intended hold. Is it unethical to remove the extension of the draw or should it stay on the route?

You should talk to the First Extensionist and get his/her approval before modifying.

bring a draw to clip where you want to clip it.

Crag Dweller wrote:You should talk to the First Extensionist and get his/her approval before modifying.

nice. caught that the second time i read it. ;)

First to clarify, are these "perma-draws" attached with quick links? Or are they simply "project-draws", regular draws left in place?

If project draws simply swapping out your own draw and placing the project draw after you are done would be proper. First come first serve with project draws on how a route is to be clipped.

If Perma-draws are they chains or dog-bones? Likely you can clip your own draw on the bolt under the quicklink of the perma-draw and then clean it when you are done. Again, first come first serve on the placement and length of perma-draws.

In this specific case, it was a "perma-draw" connected with a dogbone, not chains. What looks like happend was a second person extended the perma-draw. They also added a runner from the top quicklink to the bottom biner as a backup. The only reason I ask is because it looks messy and redundant. Should I just leave it for someone else to take care of it or should I remove everything so all that's left is a simple perma-draw, non-extended?

p.s.- I contacted First Extensionist and they said I should extend the draw to at least 10 feet. I'm skeptical, but they said it is the only way :)

Peter Schmalzried wrote:p.s.- I contacted First Extensionist and they said I should extend the draw to at least 10 feet. I'm skeptical, but they said it is the only way :)

sounds a lot like someone put the bolt in the wrong spot to me...doh!

F#*CKING extended draw blew my pinkpoint!!!

Sometimes a bolt placement is understood to be non-optimal after drilling.

Community consensus is going to dictate how long the draws should be, it's probably not a big deal and it's not something you're gonna get by talking about it on MP.

I didn't get the pinkpoint and the only excuse I could come up with was to blame the draws. Next time I'm blaming my shirt!

I can't believe this is even worth discussing... it's sport climbing, it's not exactly the pinnacle of pure climbing ethics to begin with.

BTW... wouldn't extending the draw give you an increased fall anyways? A draw that is 18" longer would mean a 36" longer fall, would it not? Unless things are bolted only 5' apart in which case it's BS. Also, most routes are generally bolted to protect the crux. And clipping lower is usually better anyways... you should be clipping at chest-waist level.

Now really... we've thankfully moved on from bolt wars to permadraw wars... and now on to permadraw perma-extension wars.

And well played with the first extensionist pun.

mmainer wrote:BTW... wouldn't extending the draw give you an increased fall anyways? A draw that is 18" longer would mean a 36" longer fall, would it not?

no

Locker wrote:Just climb the damned thing how you want... Good lord what the living hell has gotten into people these days... Sweet ba fuking Heysoos...

Glad someone finally said it.

The permadraw as described by the OP should be replaced by chain. By adding chain, an upgrade, the upgrader may then determine the length.

Question: if a climber chooses to place their own draw higher and therefore on a link joined by other links is there risk of breaking a biner or links by pinching between link and biner?

CJC, then what would allow someone to add chain?

Crag Dweller wrote:You should talk to the First Extensionist and get his/her approval before modifying.

This is the response of the day! Love it.

If you havin sport problems I feel bad for you son
I got 99 problems but a draw ain't one.

J Hazard wrote:If you havin sport problems I feel bad for you son I got 99 problems but a draw ain't one.

I generally try to stay out of ethics debates, mainly because I have none, but HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

Chop all the bolts and climb it how god intended. If he wanted all those shiny bolts dotting entire cliff bands, his excellency would have provided them from the get go.

Jeremy Hand wrote:Chop all the bolts and climb it how god intended. If he wanted all those shiny bolts dotting entire cliff bands, his excellency would have provided them from the get go.

Retarded on so many levels.
That said, this may be the most retarded thread ever.

I find your use of 'retarded' as offensive and degrading.
That said, MP is the kitchen that is mostly stocked with dull knives.