Are we headed backwards?

Good TNB: rockandice.com/news/2150-tn…

I read Born to Run and agreed. Lots to debate here:

-Are climbers getting weaker?
-Is it Sharma's non-approach approach that makes him great?
-Will $ have the same effect on climbing that it had on running?

Decent musings on what amount to some very first world problems.

The Industry versus being psyched using The Industry poster child as an example of the latter is interesting.

Born to Run was a great, wide-ranging read with some interesting thoughts, although the fad ignited by it demands a cautious approach. I know a few people hurt by barefoot running.

I dunno. My thought on the general trend of higher-end climbing is that I'm glad climbing is a sport where my trivial accomplishments far outweigh in my mind any concern with what the big boys (and girls) do.

1)No climbers are getting stronger. Think about all the specific training and tools that are around now that are specific to climbing. It's the same thing for other sports. Better training equals stronger and better athletes. I do however personally feel that the guts that it took to climb back in the day will never be repeated. To climb some of that suff with marginal protection that weighed a ton on a rope that was almost worthless is simply amazing.

2)The guy is a freak. He has stacked all the necissary traits to become a phenom climber. Genetics, talent, focus, money.

3) No, money will only benefit the sport. With more money comes better gear development and more places to climb. Money will benefit the sport as a whole and not hinder it like most people think. Many will complain about how climbing is becoming mainstream. What is wrong with that. The more people do it the more it will become recognized as a legitimate sport. Which will again increase the money coming in. Which in the end will benefit the climbers themselves.

Colonel Mustard wrote:My thought on the general trend of higher-end climbing is that I'm glad climbing is a sport where my trivial accomplishments far outweigh in my mind any concern with what the big boys (and girls) do.

Well said. I find inspiration from the top climbers but at the end of the day my own little adventures are what I care most about.

As someone who started mountaineering way before there were all of these internet databases to keep track, I find all of the comparisons interesting. When I was a little kid, various sports I was involved with always had some focus on who the best team was, who had the best time, etc. Climbing mountains was always about "look at that cool mountain, lets climb it" and a complete escape from keeping track of what others had done.

Climbing, hiking, etc has always been very personal to me, never a competition with others.

For those that go out and enjoy climbing, no, one of the worst articles depicted nothing. I couldn't figure out what the article's main point was until the end; like someone's high school level rough draft.

For those that need to be seen climbing, yes. They weren't the center of the universe, anyway.

Nobody gives a crap. Go climb, get an education, and shut the fuck up.

I think climbing is a personal pursuit that we get to share with our friends mostly. I usually feel that my favorite climb/s were what I did that day and often have as much or more fun seeing my buddies crank thier projects as I do my own.
I also remember that 10 or so years ago their was an article in Climbing magazine about the first 5.14 and how many times that a first ascent was subquently downgraded.
I know since we have so little to do we will always have the debate over who was/is the best and our opinions will always be different based upon what we value more than opposing opinions. Personally I love Sharma but dont think he is in the same league as Bachar,Reardon,Honnold because he isnt pushing the grade with his life on the line IMO.

Tom Lausch wrote: ...I do however personally feel that the guts that it took to climb back in the day will never be repeated. To climb some of that suff with marginal protection that weighed a ton on a rope that was almost worthless is simply amazing...

Because House and Anderson's ascent of the Rupal face was done using ultralight gear, it isn't all that amazing, right?

Jonny, Micah, and Wade's attempt to climb Mt Edgar showed no guts whatsoever. Dempster and Normand's decision to go to that mountain a year later and confront the same dangers required no guts at all either, right?

Steck sprinting up the Eiger, barely even plunging his tools requires no balls whatsoever because they're carbon fiber and he's wearing really light boots and crampons.

And, Honnold, well...he's done all those climbs on a rope before FS'ing them so that downgrades his accomplishments.

All of those guys (and others) who are at the top of this game still have more balls than most any one of us. It just so happens that the gear is so good and the techniques so developed today that they require a very large stage to let their balls hang out.

If you wanted to see true hardmen in the 60s, you needed to go to the climbing frontiers (Yose, Eldo, etc.). The frontiers have expanded just like anything else and, now, most of us sit around in the established and civilized lands talking about how there are no true cowboys left in the world.

Well said Crag!

I guess I don't honestly give a shit. There's so much out there that I want to climb, and there's so much out there I'll never be able to climb... As long as they keep making the gear I need to have fun climbing 5.7-5.8 multipitch stuff, I'm cool with pro's being weenies and whatnot. Maybe I'm part of the "problem"?

young climbers are pushing the boundaries of what can be done ... and all that time clipping bolts/bouldering makes em stronger for the bigger things ...

people like caldwell and lynn hill seem to think so ...

How many of these speed ascents and FS's would happen with gear from the 50's and earlier? The money in climbing has advanced gear so that these things are now possible.

Tom Lausch wrote:How many of these speed ascents and FS's would happen with gear from the 50's and earlier? The money in climbing has advanced gear so that these things are now possible.

You could say the same thing about the breakthrough accomplishments of any decade.

If Otto Herzog hadn't believed there was a market for climbing-specific carabiners, he might not have broken through Dulfer's scale in the 1920s.

If Chouinard hadn't sold pitons out of the back of his car, many of the great Yosemite ascents of the 60s may not have happened.

The only thing that's changed is the magnitude of money involved. The people who are breaking through today's barriers are no less gutsy than the people who broke through yesterday's barriers.

No matter what happens to climbing, it will always be an activity where everyone can participate in whatever discipline they enjoy and at whatever level they feel comfortable with.

Buff Johnson wrote:For those that go out and enjoy climbing, no, one of the worst articles depicted nothing. I couldn't figure out what the article's main point was until the end; like someone's high school level rough draft.

Oh yeah, well, obviously you have too much "heel strike" when you climb, otherwise you would understand the article.

Went right over your head.

The article is more railing against the sponsored, edge of being burned out number chaser who has lost touch with why they climb in the first place. But then it tries to apply that to the general population it appears, and that just doesn't stick. You paint with too broad a brush, it's going to look like crap when it dries. Great counter examples, Crag.

No, the field is just wider and more diverse now, replete with poseurs, quite competent climbers, super-freaks, and every flavor in between.

Stich wrote: No, the field is just wider and more diverse now, replete with poseurs, quite competent climbers, super-freaks, and every flavor in between.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYHxGBH6o4M

Didn't Wolfgang Gullich climb Action Directe 14d back in the 80's? What's the new hardest "confirmed" redpoint? I think the grades have only bumped up 1 or 2 letters in 25 years.

Princess Mia wrote: I'm Rick James, bitch!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVvEZByp_6M

Hank Caylor wrote:Didn't Wolfgang Gullich climb Action Directe 14d back in the 80's? What's the new hardest "confirmed" redpoint? I think the grades have only bumped up 1 or 2 letters in 25 years.

Yes, I don't think climbing's physical difficulty has expanded much in the last ~20 years. However there are many more people who climb hard, this is simply a function of more people climbing. Difficulty has not expanded not because of a change of motivation like Born to Run may suggest for running but because the pure talent needed for climbing is hard to come by, there's no changing your stride to climb harder. In running simple mechanics comes much more into play.

Also, save for speed climbing, most climbing isn't about winning such as in running. Therefore money can't have the same effect in climbing as it has had in running. There's way more factors involved to be good than the gear or training.

I DO think the attitude in climbing has shifted but not because of climbers who want to go pro and "win". It's because it attracts a much more fitness oriented demographic. The majority of climbers aren't running it out like they used to because they are focused on a more physical side of climbing rather than mental side.

Overall, comparing running with climbing is like comparing apples and oranges.

To answer my original questions more directly:
-YES, the average climber AND the average "pro" climber are weaker.
-YES, Sharma's non-approach approach is what makes him great but the same approach in competitive running will fail.
-NO, money can't change the heart of climbing, it's not possible.

Colonel Mustard wrote:My thought on the general trend of higher-end climbing is that I'm glad climbing is a sport where my trivial accomplishments far outweigh in my mind any concern with what the big boys (and girls) do.

Well said Colonel.

Ok Killis your new name is as bad as mine. C'mon dude. Also they make open toed climbing shoes? This will save me pedicure!! *runs out to buy new shoes*