Very strange Sport Climbing method if route is too long for rope?

Ok so I'm going to use some arbitrary values here for an example but somebody recently explained to me what sounds like a great idea but i'd like some second opinions.

The method requires 3 people. (Two belayers)
Let's say you have a sport route that is 120 feet tall. You have a typical 60m rope meaning you only have 196 feet of rope.

Before you ascend you are tied in as usual with one exception. You have a second rope rope slung around your shoulder ALREADY TIED IN to you harness. This seems pointless so far I know.

You then climb the 120 feet and get lowered another ~76. (when the belayer hit's his safety knot).

This is where it gets weird; you are no hanging 44 feet above the ground. Now you take out your rope you have slung around your shoulder. (which is ALREADY TIED to your harness). You now thread that rope through the next quickdraw above you and let it fall to the ground.

The second belayer on the ground hooks his device up to the newly dropped rope. After he is secure and ready to go, he gives the heads up for the first belayer to untie the safety knot and let the rope out. Now you are only supported by the second rope and second belayer. He now can lower you down on that rope as the first will just arbitrarily hang until you get down.

Granted this is a VERY dangerous method because there are so many spaces for potential mistakes. If done properly by my assessment it should work fine right?

Any comments, thoughts, opinions?

no reason to reinvent the wheel...just tie the ropes together when you get to the top and rap...

realistically your way would work, but like you said, lots of room for error and you are using 1 bolt as an anchor.

First thought is why?

Who is putting up sport routes that are 120' long without a lower off station mid way up the climb? Almost all sport routes these days assume a 60m rope. Why would the FAs do that in the first place - to save $10 on an anchor? I doubt it since you have probably sunk >$150 in gear for a route that long.

Can you remind me again why you are thinking of doing this?

Buy a 70m rope.

jaypg wrote:Buy a 70m rope.

This.
It's 2011. A fair number of newer sport/trad lines assume a 70m rope. The thought of climbing 120' with a rope over my shoulder makes me want to move to the Jersey shore.

Yes, it would work. But it's much more effort than simply tying the ropes together and rapping in one go. I mean, you already hauled both ropes up there, right?

Just rap off normal from the top.(Tie knots at the end of your rope!) And then when you are at the end of your rope clip into the closest bolt and then leave a biner and rap off that bolt. That way you only need 1 belayer and 1 rope and a lot easier. But still a little sketchy rapping off 1 bolt.

ya rap like everyone said u already hauled them both up, plus you dont need two people then and if you are well practiced and efficient probably faster.(you could safely do it with one if you got creative with tying off the belay) If you insist on doing it this way clip the draw or beaner if you want to leave a couple below you as well to at least add some redundency.

Unless its super easy climbing, don't ever do a sport climb with a rope around your back.

Flake it on the ground and tie one end to the back of your harness.

Euan Cameron wrote:Who is putting up sport routes that are 120' long without a lower off station mid way up the climb?

Just about everyone I know that has the opportunity to bolt long sport routes. Not only that, but every single partner I climb sport with has a 70 meter rope.

Euan Cameron wrote:Almost all sport routes these days assume a 60m rope.

115/120 feet is completely normal at many sport areas I've been to. Bolting for a 70 meter rope is not really a new idea, and it has been done in Europe and Asia for decades. I even encountered new rap stations out west that were bolted for 70's - currently the fastest way to get off the Hulk is w/ a 70.

I could go on, but my point is that 70 is the standard for sport climbing, and has been for quite some time now.

To the OP, this is what I do in your situation:

If the route is not overhanging, bring a tag line (not around your back, trail it) and rap off the anchor.

If the route is to steep or wandering to clean on rappel, then get your second to tie in before you lead the route (you should always do this anyway). Make sure he has his shoes and chalk bag near by, and is ready to climb. Also make sure he has a second rope flaked and clipped to his haul loop.

You lead the route and lower off draws on the anchor like normal. When the belayer gets to the end of the rope, he just starts climbing, and you will still be on belay with his knot. When you get to the ground, take your belay device off your harness and put him on belay. He will follow the route, clean it, and then rap off the anchors.

Ryan Williams wrote:To the OP, this is what I do in your situation: If the route is not overhanging, bring a tag line (not around your back, trail it) and rap off the anchor. If the route is to steep or wandering to clean on rappel, then get your second to tie in before you lead the route (you should always do this anyway). Make sure he has his shoes and chalk bag near by, and is ready to climb. Also make sure he has a second rope flaked and clipped to his haul loop. You lead the route and lower off draws on the anchor like normal. When the belayer gets to the end of the rope, he just starts climbing, and you will still be on belay with his knot. When you get to the ground, take your belay device off your harness and put him on belay. He will follow the route, clean it, and then rap off the anchors.

Except that your buddy is now forced to climb with 150+ pounds of tension from above until you reach the ground. I reckon I could probably climb 5.12 or harder with that kind of help.

This is a stupid thread. Yes, there are many complicated ways to do something that already has a simple solution.

So you propose to get lowered by the second belayer on the second rope through a SINGLE quick draw and one bolt? If so, talk about lack of redundancy. The conventional wisdom, as someone has already pointed out, is to trail a second, perhaps skinnier rope which you join with the first rope while anchored securely at the top of the route.
Why attempt to reinvent a perfectly OK wheel?

math3780 wrote:Ok so I'm going to use some arbitrary values here for an example but somebody recently explained to me what sounds like a great idea but i'd like some second opinions.

Huh? How on earth is that a great idea? That is an awful idea!

First, if you have two ropes, just rap! If you rap off the anchor, you don't have to leave a quickdraw or bail 'biner behind. How are you going to get your gear back with your method!

Also, if you rap, you don't need two belayers... which is one less element to screw up. It also means your buddies can go grab lunch or prep for the next climb or whatever, rather than doing a needlessly complicated belay swap.

Most importantly, if you have two ropes you can rap off a solid anchor. Why would you decide to instead lower off of a single bolt?!

Ryan, that last suggestion doesn't work on a route that is over 100 feet does it if you only have a 60m rope

I think the OP is half-cocked, I've never heard of such a thing. If you are willing to accept the risk you are explaning, consider Self-Rescue, by David J. Fasulo, page 64.

In Ceuse and many parts of France, most of the Frenchies I have climbed with out there are using 80 meter ropes, I never saw the need for an 80 meter rope until I went to Ceuse.

Tom Fralich wrote: Except that your buddy is now forced to climb with 150+ pounds of tension from above until you reach the ground. I reckon I could probably climb 5.12 or harder with that kind of help. This is a stupid thread. Yes, there are many complicated ways to do something that already has a simple solution.

True, but he's top roping anyway... why would it matter how much tension is on him. The only purpose is to have him clean the route. What would you do if you wanted to climb a 120 foot overhanging route and you only have a 60 meter rope? How do you clean it?

But you are right, this is a stupid thread.

z sowman wrote:Ryan, that last suggestion doesn't work on a route that is over 100 feet does it if you only have a 60m rope

Sure it does. Theoretically you could do it on a 60m route w/ a 60m rope. But then like Tom said, the follower would have your full body weight pulling him up toward the anchors for the entire pitch.

My solution works well when you are 10 or 20 feet short and the route is too steep to clean any other way, but it's certainly not the only way to do it.

Another thing I have done if we are trying to red-point a route that is too long for our rope:

First guy up tags a second rope and fixes it to the anchor. That way both climbers can work the route on lead, and rap the fixed line once they get to the chains. Again, this works best on overhanging routes where the fixed rope won't be hanging in your way. You're still faced with the problem of cleaning the route though, and if it's too steep to clean on rap, then my above solution is the best way to do it.

But yea... get a 70 meter. No reason not to. Even a 70 is short in parts of Europe and Asia.

tag line or a longer rope ... its that simple

for a steep sport route you can use a much smaller line as a pull line ... and rap down on yr gri gri ;)

just rap. no need for unnecessary danger of lowering off one bolt.