Devil's Head guidebook poaching

Tony B wrote: But here's the thing... I don't go on trips to sport climb

Too late Tony. Only a fool would say that!

Wow. TB. I was out of line for calling the FP authors liars, but my stance still remains the same and whether it is based on a one-sided story or not, so be it. I hope the truth rears its head sooner than later.

I just hope both parties come to an agreement with which they are both happy with, as right now, that is not the case..obviously.

lets not forget Climbing also omitted the Hubbel guide and I am sure there are some others as well. My beef is more with Climbing than Jason. They allowed Jason to present the whole Splatte as some new wondrous area, which it is not. They allowed Jason to write an inaccurate article with respect to guidebooks and information currently available, which basically ended up being an advertisement for the new book. Jason knew this the article misrepresented information about currently available guides but he wants to sell his book, fair enough. It falls on the publisher not the writer to check this stuff. I hope Jason's book book is good as the approaches to the Splatte stuff are often out dated and there is much new route potential and it sounds like Jason and his crew are actively getting after that, Kudos to them. However, for those of us who like DH and who like climbing new routes there, sport routes, we don't want to see Tod's book ripped off. For most of the DH routes especially the newer ones Tod is the only source of info cause he is doing the development and this stuff hasn't been posted online. So, either Jason got the info with Tod's blessing or he poached the info from Tod's book.

Why do we care? because Tod puts the proceeds from the RRR book back into developing the area. From what I hear there are another 500 or more routes that can go in at DH. I for one want to see more development in the area. Lets say that a bolt costs $1 a hanger costs $2.5 and anchors are $10 lets say that the average DH route is 12 clips plus anchors. That is $46 per route times 500 routes or $23000 of additional hardware to establish the remaining 500 routes at DH. Not to mention the work. IMO it would be nice if the sales of RRR could offset this cost a little. Tony is right we will all have to let our $$$ do the talking. If you like climbing at DH buy RRR and support the developers. Or maybe Jason wants to get his hands dirty; buy some hangers and bolts, lug some lead acid batteries and a drill up to DH weekend after weekend and help develop the remaining 500 or so routes? The first 400-500 routes at DH are great! I am sure the next 400-500 will be also, I am also pretty sure it will be Tod investing his time and money into developing them.

While I was working,this thread has taken off. It’s a good thing Chris called me during my lunch break so I could contribute. Tony and Chris, forgive me I don’t have the time to read all of your back and fourths. However, I will add that talk is cheap and actions speak louder than words. Do I know exactly what was said between Tod and Jason; no. But I do know that they did in fact discuss this issue. I also know that Jason, after that fact, wrote an article for Climbing magazine where he mentions the key developers to all areas, except Tod for Devil’s Head, as well as his current Guidebook in the area beta. There is no way Jason just “forgot” to include such information, and if he says that he did (which I wouldn’t believe him), then it was a very Freudian mistake that appears to be fully self serving.
P.S. Dougald, I don’t think this was a deliberate attempt by Climbing, I know there must be tons of pressure publishing and crazy time crunches. This could have been very easily overlooked and I appreciate your response in this matter. (I’m not canceling my subscription or anything).

Dave it wasn't intentional just lazy. I bet if I claimed to have made the FFA of a new .15c they would check their sources.

Tony B wrote:For the record, I called Jason on his lunch hour. He had no idea that this was going on. Perhaps after reading it he'll take the time to respond. Until then, I suggest that people avoid making fools of themselves.

I hope he takes time to respond. I have heard from multiple persons who have been told that Tod broke their agreement. I would very much like to hear from him which part of the agreement was broken on Tod's part.

Bill Ballace wrote:Dave it wasn't intentional just lazy. I bet if I claimed to have made the FFA of a new .15c they would check their sources.

They wouldn't have to check very hard; you live in Pullman, WA.

Tom R wrote: I hope he takes time to respond. I have heard from multiple persons who have been told that Tod broke their agreement. I would very much like to hear from him which part of the agreement was broken on Tod's part.

+1

It’s pretty clear that there was an agreement between Fixed Pin and Stone Seekers (aka Tod) regarding the publishing of their respective guidebooks. What’s not clear is why that agreement has been broken. Tod feels like he upheld his end of the bargain, so it would be nice to know why Fixed Pin feels differently. Please enlighten us...

Dave Meyers wrote: They wouldn't have to check very hard; you live in Pullman, WA.

More importantly I am 5'4", 295 lbs, and bald.

Of course they wouldn't have had to check very hard to determine that there are guidebooks to this new and amazing area called the Splatte either. Shoot, I knew all about these places even Thunder Ridge and as you said I live in Pullman, WA. That place is like the middle of fucking nowhere.

Jason should come on and tell his side of the story. Maybe Tod beat his woman and stole his firstborn, hahaha. It could just be payback.

hmm, i gotta say this whole thread has me pretty bummed out. i like the folks involved, i love the area involved. i have mostly done a lot of routes in the old platte, but i have also recently been enjoying the completely different climbing up at DH.

man tony, calling jason at lunch. if someone called me at lunch and i couldn't respond to the situation i would probably have an anxiety attack. as it is, i'm not even involved and i feel anxious about all of it.

seems to me that plagiarism is unethical and, possibly, illegal regardless of the back story. and, the fact that it's happened before doesn't make it ok.

DH has been around for eons and offers up many spectacular climbs in a wilderness setting. Of course there has been previous climbers that have enjoyed the area, at least I hope they have. So to try to provide credit to every person that has contributed to an area seems nearly impossible. I do know however that Tod Anderson has been the driving force at DH for 20 years and we are all reaping the benefits of his relentless efforts. So credit should be given where credit is due. I do not have any room for slandering/dishonoring or completely ommitting a persons efforts in order to benefit oneself. What has ever happen to when you could shake a persons hand and expect that person to honor their word. I ask that the new guide exclude DH all together.

rags wrote:DH has been around for eons and offers up many spectacular climbs in a wilderness setting. Of course there has been previous climbers that have enjoyed the area, at least I hope they have. So to try to provide credit to every person that has contributed to an area seems nearly impossible. I do know however that Tod Anderson has been the driving force at DH for 20 years and we are all reaping the benefits of his relentless efforts. So credit should be given where credit is due. I do not have any room for slandering/dishonoring or completely ommitting a persons efforts in order to benefit oneself. What has ever happen to when you could shake a persons hand and expect that person to honor their word. I ask that the new guide exclude DH all together.

Well said,sir.

rags wrote:DH has been around for eons and offers up many spectacular climbs in a wilderness setting. Of course there has been previous climbers that have enjoyed the area, at least I hope they have. So to try to provide credit to every peWhat has ever happen to when you could shake a persons hand and expect that person to honor their word

Lol, pretty much never. Ever since apes started walking on two legs and evolution made man that a "man" has killed, cheated, lied to get ahead of another.

Crag Dweller wrote:seems to me that plagiarism is unethical and, possibly, illegal regardless of the back story. and, the fact that it's happened before doesn't make it ok.

This is exactly the problem with people calling plagiarism. It has a very specific definition. If I am not mistaken, there has been a lawsuit over it (Table Mountain... the previous guides, not Jason's) and there was a cash reward, as I understand it.

But if there is no plagiarism, there is nothing illegal going on.
Why are we operating under the assumption that there has been plagiarism? Ovelesky tried to sue someone over the names of routes being used in books other than his own for Zion. It didn't work out for him. All guides written are based in some part on information from some party other than the author unless the author developed all the routes.

Now, if you haven't read Both of the books, and can't cite a specific example of plagiarism, then saying that it has happened is absolutely slander, probably liable if done to harm someone's capitol interests, and perhaps sedition if intended to harm them personally.

Now what is illegal here and where was the crime?

If you want to argue that Tod should keep all the fruits of his labor via a 'ethical' right to exclusively publish only his routes, then so be the argument. But it doesn't make anything illegal, it's just your opinion. I was asked what I thought about publishing DH. I more or less shrugged and said that there would be a shit storm. What do ya' know? Predictable, but it doesn't make it either wrong or right...

I already have one of Tod's books. I already supported it.

Just a bunch of whining about a guide that really doesn't mean much. When are the vandals going to come out and how about parking lot fist fights?

If credit is given to where it is due than any one that has touched Sphinx Crack needs to pay up ($$$$$$) for it creation. Colorado School of Mines could claim ownership and royalties.

Todd Leeson wrote: +1 It’s pretty clear that there was an agreement between Fixed Pin and Stone Seekers (aka Tod) regarding the publishing of their respective guidebooks. What’s not clear is why that agreement has been broken. Tod feels like he upheld his end of the bargain, so it would be nice to know why Fixed Pin feels differently. Please enlighten us...

Now we're getting to the meat of the matter...
I would also love to hear both sides of the story. I've heard the opposite one as some of you.
But I note that NEITHER party has broken the silence publicly and in writing. What does that tell you?

Tony B wrote:But I note that NEITHER party has broken the silence publicly and in writing. What does that tell you?

it's happy hour..?

Tony B wrote: Now we're getting to the meat of the matter... I would also love to hear both sides of the story. I've heard the opposite one as some of you. But I note that NEITHER party has broken the silence publicly and in writing. What does that tell you?

I would imagine their respective lawyers have told them to keep their mouths shut.

Kirra........It's happy hour??!! Whoopee!!!
I'll buy the first round................jack