Why are we even having this argument about Perma-Draws?

The best part about this debate is that nobody is going to stop you from placing and using your own draws on said route. You could step on a sharp hold that punctured your shoe and fall and get injured. You could then sue la sportiva for not making their shoes puncture resistant. Guess what, you're not going to get anywhere. Even if there was this elusive permanent draw liability, the worst that could happen is the end of permadraws in that legal district. So there is absolutely no reason to stop using them until being legally forced to do so.

Nick Rhoads wrote: I may be incorrect but what we have here is a difference of opinion not necessarily of facts.

No, the difference is that you have never been on a route that was dangerous to clean, either on TR or by repeling. So the real issue is in facts, or your lack there of. Imagine taking a 30 foot swing into the deck because you tried to top tope a horizontal cave and fell right after you un-clipped. Do you really not understand the danger of cleaning a horizontal cave? It is oftentimes more work and more dangerous to clean than to lead.

wankel7 wrote: If there is no fixed pro either you have to climb it twice to get your gear or your belayer has to clean it. It sounds like that method would mean people might be leaving some of their own gear behind.

This comment leads to an important point that is under-emphasized- what happens when people leave their (aluminum and nylon) draws up on a route. Draws being left in place is to be expected at certain crags- but in this case they are project draws.

Lets follow this line of logic If you have a crag with very difficult, very steep routes, you can generally expect that people will be projecting there routes. Now, if someone is projecting a route in the Pipe Dream, the Madness Cave, etc., they probably will not clean those draws at the end of each day. I'm not saying whether this is the right thing to do or not, I'm just saying that this is the reality of what will happen. Also, to the 5.8 trad climbers posting here that think that these draws should be cleaned at the end of each day, I welcome you to visit the Pipe Dream and try to clean these draws (good luck).

Anyway, so now we have some temporarily-fixed project draws in place. This should be okay, right? As long as they are temporary? Wrong. With project draws in place, other people will climb the route and clip those draws. With perhaps a little sand stuck to a few of those ropes, these draws will wear VERY quickly. This occurs because when people hang project draws, they often hang their lightweight aluminum draws, which are great for personal use, but wear alarmingly quickly when fixed (I've seen it happen on the 2-3 week time scale...scary).

This is the reason for a number of the incidents over the last few years in which a fixed draw has broken, severed a rope, etc. The draws in question were NOT proper perma-draws (steel biners, chain or cable, etc), but instead were manky lightweight aluminum. The severed rope incident at Midnight Surf is a prime example of this- the biner that developed a sharp edge was someone's lightweight aluminum project draw.

So here is a quick recap: If there are not perma-draws in place at popular steep crags, project draws will be left in place to fill the role. These aluminum project draws will wear quickly and become dangerous.

Here is a solution: do it right the first time so that the abovementioned dangerous situation does not occur. Put up good, solid permadraws with steel biners and steel chain/cable (the cable draws with the black rubber cover are really nice). These draws will last a very long time, and will not quickly wear to a sharp edge. This is a safety measure. The fixed-draw accidents did not occur because there were permadraws, but actually occurred because there were not proper permadraws. Put good, safe fixed gear in place, and maintain it properly.

Note that this situation is unique to very popular, very steep caves. At vertical crags, or lightly visited crags, the situation is different.

Nick Rhoads wrote: Unfortunately, you seem to know very little about my climbing experience. You should check out my autobiography available at your local book store. I'm not spewing my ideas as facts, I'm asking for clear concise rebuttal to my opinions. But, how do you know I don't know what I'm talking about? And how do I know that you know what you're talking about? Do you see the dilemma?

I have asked you what your experience is now multiple times but you seem highly elusive. Where is your experience coming from? Again, this is important, because it is not a fact until it is based in actual circumstance and reality. So where are your facts coming from????

My experience of this comes from the following caves: Motherload, Pipe Dream, Solar and Solstice, Crystal, Rifle, and so many more. How about you? I thought most of the permanent steel fixed gear at these areas increased safety level and facilitated ease of use. I only saw one injury this summer and it was on slacker at Rifle where the belayer was dragged 20 feet when her climber messed up while cleaning the route. So now we know where my opinions are coming from. What areas and experiences are you taking your opinions from?

Nick Rhoads wrote: You're missing the whole point, perma-draws are an ADDED risk. It's bad enough to have to rely on the bolts but all we NEED to climb these routes are the bolts not the chains or biners.

You keep harping back to this claim, that perma-draws add risk. I think that this is poorly thought out; see my post above.

Remember:
On steep, frequently projected routes, fixed gear WILL appear due to the danger (yes, danger) and difficulty of cleaning these climbs

If there is going to be fixed gear, the safest thing to do is to make sure that it is good steel fixed gear that is situation-appropriate.

Therefore, placing good, steel permadraws actually REDUCES the likelyhood of an accident due to fixed gear failure, so long as the permadraws are properly maintained (and at many crags with a strong community, they are properly maintained).

Eric Dorsey wrote: No that is not their only benefit, obviously you have no idea what you are talking about as many other posters have point out. On really steep routes they are in fact safer, rather than trying to follow and clean or lower and clean where you risk taking a big swing at the first couple bolts. You obviously do not have a lot of experience with them so quit trying to force your opinion on everyone else.

Excuse me then, it's my opinion that they are only for convenience and there have been some arguments for other reasons but I'm not really convinced. Shouldn't these climbs be bolted such that the bolts can be clipped from the "clipping stance"? In other words it's my opinion that routes can be engineered such that PD's are not needed and if they are I would consider that route mis-bolted.

I'm not forcing my opinion here, just asking for debate. Also, just because I mostly climb at Devils Lake doesn't mean I've never climbed steep sport.

Ok so where have you climbed? Why can't you tell anyone the steep routes you have been on with perma draws that you dont think were necessary?

greenben wrote: Finally, someone who can lay out the argument in no uncertain terms. This is exactly why I think it is ok to leave a stash of crash pads everywhere I go. If you don't boulder at V13 or harder you probably just don't understand. Let me break down the logic for you (because if you don't think as hard as I usually do you probably won't be able to figure it out yourself.) When I'm projecting my latest V14/15 I can't have my pesky legs weighing me down too much, otherwise the FA is going to go to someone else!! The most important element of my training is training myself to use my legs as infrequently as possible (trust me, when you break the V12 barrier you will understand). I have to plan my sending days around the weight of my legs and usually have to wait at least a few days after hiking in a mega-super load crash pads. In order to make my legs resemble toothpicks as much as possible I usually have to talk some of my friends into carrying the crash pads for me. My most trusted friend has the privilege of wheeling me up to my project in a wheelchair on "send day". Onlookers are sometimes confused by the appearance of a man with paper-clip-like legs being carted around in a wheelchair up in the mountains. But, like anyone else who doesn't climb V13 or harder, they just can't really understand what it is like and the commitment that it requires. On one terrible day when I couldn't find any of my beanie-clad bros to push me up the mountain, I had to crawl ON MY OWN POWER all of the way to my project in order to limit the use of my legs. The point is, when I leave my wheelchair and my pads at the base of my proj it isn't litter and it isn't laziness; its just the sacrifice that needs to be made for V13 and harder problems to exist. If you don't climb V13, well....deal with it. p.s. for all you sub-V13 climbers out there I would be more than happy to give you some tips on how to accelerate muscular atrophy in your legs while simultaneously training for bouldering. my single most helpful hint is to put an a harness (ugggh, I know) and suspend yourself a few feet above a treadmill using your friends climbing rope (I know, you are a boulderer and you hate dealing with silly ropes and knots). Once you are above the treadmill turn it on and practice your crawling approach technique by using only your hands. I hope this helps

Love it!

One last point: Sport climbing is dependent on the climbing community--and this includes everyone who uses there crags--working together to keep gear in good form. This includes bolts, permadraws, raps anchors, and even things like trails. It is not just the responsibility of the route developers--it is everyone's job. Permadraws can be kept safe if you (yes that means YOU) replace excessively worn or otherwise sketchy gear.

This is possible if the community works together. Recent efforts to rebolt the Motherlode highlight this, and really show what can be done if the community works together. If nothing else, we as individuals would at least donate to local bolt/anchor replacement funds.

So anyway, I'd like to spin this debate in a positive way. instead of throwing our hands up in despair and saying that there is no one to take responsibility for the safety of fixed gear, why not just take the responsibility into our own hands and do something about it?

Nick Rhoads wrote: In other words it's my opinion that routes can be engineered such that PD's are not needed and if they are I would consider that route mis-bolted.

How exactly are you going to engineer a steep overhanging cave route to keep it safe for someone seconding to clean, or to clean by lowering? You are clueless... I have stuff to do and I don't think you will ever get it.

Eric Dorsey wrote:Top rope anchors at devils lake are killing all the trees and damaging the rock. I think if you can't lead a climb you shouldn't be on it, no more top rope anchors at devils lake!

Trees might have been saved years ago IF many permanent top rope bolted anchors were placed long ago along the East Ramparts.(not that I'm in favor of bolting up the Lake area). In that 9 hardness rock, they would last for many years without needing replacement. Only danger would be how much damage they would receive from all the hikers who access the top of climbs too and who sometimes have messed with our rope and sling anchors while we are using. Any place with top access pretty much invites top rope climbing, and it is a hard statement to prohibit it and require leading. Climbers did not have the convenience of a training gym years ago and still deserve today the right to experience the rocks on their own level.

We aren't talking about granite cracks here. Limestone for example can have large areas of questionable rock that might be climbable but not bolt worthy. Ultimately, though, that is irrelevant to the issue of danger in cleaning routes which you seem unable to explain away.

Eric Dorsey wrote:Top rope anchors at devils lake are killing all the trees and damaging the rock. I think if you can't lead a climb you shouldn't be on it, no more top rope anchors at devils lake!

Now THAT I can agree with!

Woodchuck ATC wrote: Trees might have been saved years ago IF many permanent top rope bolted anchors were placed long ago along the East Ramparts.(not that I'm in favor of bolting up the Lake area). In that 9 hardness rock, they would last for many years without needing replacement. Only danger would be how much damage they would receive from all the hikers who access the top of climbs too and who sometimes have messed with our rope and sling anchors while we are using. Any place with top access pretty much invites top rope climbing, and it is a hard statement to prohibit it and require leading. Climbers did not have the convenience of a training gym years ago and still deserve today the right to experience the rocks on their own level.

Sorry my post was said with sarcasm. I was just trying to comment on something I don't have a lot of knowledge on, sort of like Nick commenting on permadraws.

For god sakes gentleman, I'm sure there are circumstances were PD's are necessary but my question is where do you draw the line? In addition I'm arguing that it might be a better idea to avoid PD's due to their added risks.

I guess the majority of my cave experience is from going to RRG but I haven't been back in many years and can't really recall what I flailed on. I've since moved on to almost strictly trad climbing because I find it more enjoyable and frankly I'm better at it.

So, if I may sum up your arguments, since I disagree with you I can not have ever climbed in and cleaned a big cave? Since you have no real way of knowing if I did or didn't climb in a cave before how can you claim that I don't know what I'm talking about? The cart is coming before the horse here.

I am 100% confident I can use my ingenuity to hang and clean any sport route out there. It might take some extra equipment and extra time but in the end it can be done without PD's, therefore avoiding the safety and liability issue associated with PD's entirely.

To the above statement you can say "nah-uh!" but on this internet forum you will only be stating opinion as you can not prove me wrong here. On the other side of the coin I can't prove you wrong either and whatever I say is also only an opinion. Therefore, we have come to a standoff of opinion and you can attack my experience all you want but the fact is neither of us can prove the other wrong without some experiments. Anyone care to make some videos?

Guys, I think we are getting a little off track here...

I think we'd all like to hear more about Mike R.'s plans for genetic manipulation of the chicken genome. :)

Sport climbers suck anyway

SirMixALot wrote:Sport climbers suck anyway

I do believe that about sums up the argument, as poorly thought out as it is.

Dannl, in the example I am the two chicken guy. Sadly, I don't know a thing about manipulating the genes of chickens. . . . I don't even know what type they wear.

Am I the only person who read this whole thread who has never seen a perma-draw?

I will keep my eye out for this elusive beast.

All I can say is...things sure do get complicated when you climb hard.

Besides chained draws, I think the permanently left in place quickdraws on bolt hangers are also in this discussion. All can have suspect weaknesses after a length of time.