Bowline tie in knot..

Copperhead wrote:So you all think the bowline is clearly superior, but somehow has been rejected by the majority of climbers?

Cause it's so easy to see when it's correct

EDIT
I remember a point around 1980 when there was this trend; a figure eight tie in. "Everybody's doin' it". I learned how to tie in with my first Goldline using a double Bowline. Never had any issues with failures. I went along with the trend and used the figure eight for thirty or so years. Recently got tired of struggling and noticed Erickson using a Bowline. I'll never(?)go back to the eight.

Another benefit to the bowline is that once untied from the harness, it is untied completely. No remaining knot in the rope to worry about - I'm sure we've all had the pleasure of someone pulling the rope but having forgot to remove the other half of a figure 8.

Keenan Waeschle wrote: check it every so often so that it stays tight and attached to you. fig-8s suck

Hmm sounds like a great knot! Once I tie my figure 8 I never have to "check it every so often to make sure it doesn't come untied". Plus how is your partner supposed to check that your bowline is tied correctly when most people have no idea how to do one? Is a figure 8 with yosemite finish really that bulky?

Joe Huggins wrote: Cause it's so easy to see when it's correct EDIT I remember a point around 1980 when there was this trend; a figure eight tie in. "Everybody's doin' it". I learned how to tie in with my first Goldline using a double Bowline. Never had any issues with failures. I went along with the trend and used the figure eight for thirty or so years. Recently got tired of struggling and noticed Erickson using a Bowline. I'll never(?)go back to the eight.

You can see it as a trend or a large user base applying collective wisdom to decision making. I think in this case it is the latter, as fashion just doesn't apply (who is impressed with a tie in knot?). The merits of the figure 8 outweigh the merits of the bowline.

Phil Lauffen wrote: All of those reasons are subjective... I don't think the bowline is fastest to untie(how long does it take you to tie a knot anyways?), easiest to untie(is it really that hard to untie a figure 8?), in the dark(I think its easier to inspect the figure 8 by feel than the bowline). EDK is the best rap knot, but thats a different thread.

Yes, those reasons are mostly subjective, but in my experience they bear out in practice (I'll race ya! :-) . For sure, an 8 that was loaded (through a fall or by lowering) is often much more difficult to untie than a Yosemite bowline. But of course it is still a matter of preference, and I'm not advocating that everyone switch -- an 8 is a safe and standard tie-in knot -- just letting folks know why I choose to use a good alternative.

I've never seen a Yosemite bowline loosen. You can always tie it off with a grapevine safety knot (half a double fisherman's) if you are paranoid (I often do).

WRT to the bowline stopper knot, I was referring to the stopper safety knot one should tie at the bottom of one's rappel ropes, not the knot used for tying two ropes together (but you are right, that's a topic for a different thread).

everyone I climb with doesn't use a fig 8, if you fall on them they are incredibly hard to untie, especially if you're lazy and don't dress the knot. As for checking the bowline I only do it cause I have read of them coming undone and I like to make sure the thing keeping me off the talus is still there, I do the same with a fig 8. and the "check is a quick glance down every few pitches, doesn't really take more than half a second. I still stand by what I said earlier, fig 8s suck!

I've used the bowline only a few times, but find that it is always easy to untie; it doesn't cinch down like a figure 8. It probably has its uses. I think it results in a little bit more force on the anchors (something small and probably insignificant except in circumstances where you don't want to be in the first place).

Why not use this if you are worried about bulk?

putzl.com/~klew/f8x.shtml

Also, if you are complaining about having a hard time undoing a fig 8 after a fall, make sure to cinch the thing up tight before climbing. I never have issues loosening my knot because I take the time to tie a concentric knot and tighten each strand of the 8.

Also, I am "knot" sure why so many people think that a bowline is quicker to tie and that this is a reason to use it. Does it really take too long to tie a fig 8 (I'm thinking 20 seconds)!?

Although, in the end, both knots will do the job, I just prefer the visual that a properly tied fig 8 provides. After all, it is a handsome knot.

bradyk wrote:I get tons of crag-hags just because I tie in with the bowline.

Ha, funny :-)

Why not use this if you are worried about bulk? putzl.com/~klew/f8x.shtml

Thats also great.. thanx

Joe Huggins wrote: Yeah, thanks. I wasted oxygen reading that

Considering your eyes were already requiring ATP to be open and function, constantly receiving signals between sleep cycles, I highly doubt any extra O2 was required to read my short post. Perhaps time would have been a more realistic loss?

Daryl Allan wrote:Essentially, you're creating a bowline on a bight but without doing it from a bight; rather with a single strand. Quick, bomber, won't weld together like an 8. If it comes untied, you did something terribly wrong and should probably stick to an 8, 9, etc.. ;)

Exactly what I use, negates all the issue that are generally offered as reason not to use it, and it offers all the advantages generally spewed about why it's great.

But truthfully, at this point I just don't care. I'm fat, don't climb very hard, and might fall, so I like it. If my partner likes the figure-eight, so be it. At some point in your climbing life, you realize it just doesn't matter.

Pat Erley wrote: Considering your eyes were already requiring ATP to be open and function, constantly receiving signals between sleep cycles, I highly doubt any extra O2 was required to read my short post. Perhaps time would have been a more realistic loss?

Whoa! An intellectual, too...man, you got it all!

Joe Huggins wrote: Whoa! An intellectual, too...man, you got it all!

Don't forget about my stunning looks.

Pat Erley wrote: Don't forget about my stunning looks.

Yeah, hence the word "too"-did you think I was referring to the Star Wars props?

ilclimberken wrote:I know how to tie a bowline and though the tie in loops too.. but how do i finish the knot with a stopper knot- kinda like the double fisherman after a figure 8 follow through. Anybody know what im talkin about>?

Don't use just a regular bowline. Use a Yosemite Bowline. No stopper knot needed but I usually tie off my excess with a overhand knot or doubles fisherman.

Don't listen to all the goons out there saying that the Yosemite bowline comes untied. They would be hard pressed to come up with statistics or examples of correctly tied Yosemite bowlines coming undone. Learn your tie in knot well before you start using it though.

Choss Chasin' wrote: Don't listen to all the goons out there saying that the Yosemite bowline comes untied. They would be hard pressed to come up with statistics or examples of correctly tied Yosemite bowlines coming undone. Learn your tie in knot well before you start using it though.

http://rockandice.com/component/content/article/37-tnb/1499-tnb

I can't verify that it was tied correctly, but this TNB scared me enough to use a figure 8 all the time.

^^^ i don't see how the above link has anything to do with a figure 8 vs. bowline...

'nother vote for a bowline being perfectly safe. I'd bet most of the bowline haters have harnesses with quick-release buckles... I wouldn't touch one of those with a 200 foot rope.

one caveat: the loop formed should NOT be used as a belay/anchor loop. I doubt it would fail with any of the generally used backups, though.

I've just always tied in with a square knot. Not bulky at all and easy to tie.

MattB wrote:^^^ i don't see how the above link has anything to do with a figure 8 vs. bowline...

I don't know how accurate or true it is but it clearly talks about it at the bottom of the page.... Something about some girl knot tightening her knot(bowline) and it coming untied, who knows though she could have only tied it halfway to start with.