Quickdraw stolen off of first bolt of Crime and Punishment, Rifle

Austin Baird wrote:Nope - I'm not badass enough to go to Rifle. If I climbed 5.14 I'd climb there routinely and then I'd be accepted into the inner cadre of climbers who know that there are lots of good reasons to leave draws hanging on the first bolt. I wouldn't need to take the draw anyway because I'd probably be sponsored and I'd pass draws out like ketamine at an Amy Winehouse party (too soon?).

I know this is ten hours old, but you made my day.

Were the first draws still there on the other two warm-ups left of CandP (cold cuts and 80ft)?

One time I drove to Rifle, from California, because I heard there were free booty draws hanging on every route. There were, and I bootied every single one! Now I've got the best, sportiest new rifle rack ever!

Tristan B wrote:It's a draw, just let it go. And how would a non climber booty your draw? Was it 5 feet of the ground?

Tristan's right, its only a draw. theres no need to cry and cuss. get over it. buy your bro another draw and dont forget it the next time. sorry it happened though.

germsauce wrote:I'm not bitching, I'm just making a last ditch-free effort while i have time to kill to not have to replace my friend's draw because i can think of a hundred other ways i'd rather spend $15-25.

Sounds to me like your bitching. Get over it...its a draw...happens all the time. Shouldn't of been that stupid to leave a single draw on the first bolt of a climb. Either replace it with a new one or go booty another one. But for Christ sake, get over it.

germsauce wrote: I made a mistake in forgetting to grab the draw on my way down, and then forgetting about it until the next day.

And then you go and blame someone else because its gone? Sounds like you abandoned it to me (intentionally or not) and since you seem to think yourself as not a "noob" climber like the folks you are blaming for the disappearance of your draw then you should now that it is common practice to "booty" a single draw left on a route...no matter where you are.

Patsy wrote:One time I drove to Rifle, from California, because I heard there were free booty draws hanging on every route. There were, and I bootied every single one! Now I've got the best, sportiest new rifle rack ever!

Your so lucky Patsy. I wish I would have thought of that then I also would have the sweetest Rifle rack.

If it helps Germsauce, I will buy your friend a new draw.

No need Timmy, I believe I've already gotten my money's worth with this little debate here.

I think the essence of this whole debate is what is booty vs. theft, and glad I sparked an interesting conversation.

For the sensitive fellow who needs an apology, you obviously are confused. Since the first post I've never maintained that it was stolen by climbers.

I see posts on here all the time like this one mountainproject.com/v/pine-…, figured i might beat someone to the punch.

Some of the responses that this is obviously booty and should be taken by the next person who sees it are shocking to me. But maybe i live in a fantasy world where when someone leaves something behind, like a pair of sunglasses at a crag, or whatever, you make an effort to give it back. it's a very slippery moral slope we are on when we say it's okay to take something when another has forgotten it. See you all at REI tomorrow, I have to buy a draw.

germsauce wrote:it's a very slippery moral slope we are on when we say it's okay to take something when another has forgotten it. See you all at REI tomorrow, I have to buy a draw.

I left draws on a climb once by mistake, and I just accept the fact that they belong to someone else now. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the individual that has my draws has an MP account, but I'm not gonna ask around for them. I should have been more careful. If I found a draw on a climb, I would take it (after asking around to see if it belonged to anyone nearby).

Then again, if I was working a climb with all perma draws except one, I would probably just use the draw that was there and leave it when I was done. So, I suppose I can see why you'd be upset. It's important to realize, however, that this is a strange case. In most circumstances that draw is instantly booty to be claimed by the next climber.

Just my 2 cents.

germsauce wrote: I made a mistake in forgetting to grab the draw on my way down, and then forgetting about it until the next day. I have no problem admitting that, but it's a damn slippery slope when you condone taking something that, if left alone, would have easily found its way back to the original owner. Thanks all, this has been fun and thought provoking.

What is supposed to happen the the draw if you continued to forget it? At some point it becomes trash/litter/booty left behind but some careless person. The next person coming along does not know how long you have forgotten about the draw and that you might sometime in the future remember it and come back for it.

Are you kidding me? you didn't maintain it was stolen by climbers.

Your original post reads ...Who F*$&%ing steals shit like that? How does someone like that look themselves in the mirror?
Your second post reads.... I see no instance where stealing another persons gear can be done in "fair game"
and...is everything in it fair game, or is there such a thing as morals, where you don't take shit that's not yours?
and ... i can see how a draw on an unattended route might seem like "fair game", but you are also doing a great job at making this world a much shittier place to be.
and yet another... but it's a damn slippery slope when you condone taking something that, if left alone, would have easily found its way back to the original owner.

Sorry buddy I think you are the one who is confused. You make a couple of statements about how it could be a non climber but mostly you just whine about how disappointed you are in the community for the condoning of taking your gear. You may want to re-read your posts.

Here is a thought, maybe it's not the best idea to insult the audience when asking them for help. There are several examples of how not to be accusatory when looking for lost items in the lost and found forum.

Shumin Wu wrote: Really? All the huffing and puffing over a cam worth < $50.

Well this is the first post I've seen about a cam really (I'm sure if someone was bored they could find more). But the context of that thread is they "caught" the theif, the guy lied and was talking smack about selling them back their cam.

If germsauce had caught the guy in that scenario it would be a completely different issue. IMO

On a side note, my opinion is bootying gear when the person is still there is stealing. But that's probably a whole nother thread debate.

Ben if your still feeling that bad about it PM me i'm happy to meet up for a beer, or wine spritzer, (your choice i'm buying) to explain how/why i'm not blaming every climber in the world/mt proj/rifle etc...

enough of my time/electrons have been wasted on this. can't say it wasn't entertaining.

germsauce wrote:If you are the kind of person who finds a wallet on the ground and doesn't make an effort to return it to it's rightful owner, i can see how a draw on an unattended route might seem like "fair game", but you are also doing a great job at making this world a much shittier place to be.

You didn't leave your wallet clipped to a bolt.
You left a $20 bill clipped to a bolt.

The points I was trying to make is simply that this has been happening at Rifle for a long time and it is hikers/visitors/non climbers that grab the first draws most of the time. I've never personally heard about climbers stealing draws there. The other Point is simply that you came out kicking and screaming rather than simply saying..." hey did someone happen to grab this, if so I'd love to catch up with you over a beer and get it back, thanks"
To see this thread evolve the way it has was entertaining to say the least. I love the comments (particularly the out of state people) that bring trad climbing ethics on "booty" to Rifle and cast some blanket policy for all climbing areas and styles. That gave me a good chuckle!
We good germsauce? See you in the canyon for that beer.

we good homey!

If you leave it, expect it to removed. As a climber, I love these booty or theft threads. I must say that we must be the only outdoor users who feel it is OK to leave gear all over the place, and not expect an obvoius outcome. Hikers seldom purposefully leave gear behind, neither do backpackers, kayakers, mountain bikers and most every other outdoor user (excluding ATV and dirt bikers, and power boaters who generally are total slobs).

Other users hiking by a crag festooned with quickdraws must think we climbers are the most self-centered slobs around. Reminds me of all the shit piles, and abondoned gear on 8000 meter peaks. I got my jollies, but f*ck cleaning up the mess I made. I'm a climber, so I'm too important to give a real crap. Then I see tape, energy bar wrappers and cig butts at the base of cliffs that only climbers frequent. We are such hypocrites.

It is so self-centered. My take: A climber leaves gear either abondoned or what not, but the individual who abondoned it, or couldn't remove it, expects some one to make every effort to get it back to them. Like the chick mentioned in this thread, she leaves it on a three pitch climb, but tells the next party to give it back when they get it. The bitch didn't even think to offer something. Why should I bother with an attitude like that? Same thing on the other thread. Any one could claim its my abondoned piece so give it back. Well, unless the person recovering the booty saw it being stuck, how do they know if it belongs to that other person?

And, of course, I have used fixed anchors, placed a few bolts, etc, too, so I certainly am partially to blame...as a group, perhaps we should be a bit more introspective about how other outdoor users view us as a group. It seems we often don't care to see how other user groups view us.

Flame away!

Tradster wrote:neither do backpackers, kayakers, mountain bikers and most every other outdoor user (excluding ATV and dirt bikers, and power boaters who generally are total slobs).

As far as kaykers goes I was actually not sure what was up when I first started boating and saw that everybody puts their names on their paddles. But it's a whole different game when the current takes your gear and you can't get down river fast enough to catch it. On the other hand we always did a beach check figuring anything left laying on the shore would surely walk away.

Tim McCabe wrote: As far as kaykers goes I was actually not sure what was up when I first started boating and saw that everybody puts their names on their paddles. But it's a whole different game when the current takes your gear and you can't get down river fast enough to catch it. On the other hand we always did a beach check figuring anything left laying on the shore would surely walk away.

True about the kayaking...had to paddle like hell down river to get my buddy's paddle and then paddle like crazy up river to get it to him. I'm into strapping everything down as much as possible...but sh*t happens.

Scott McMahon wrote:haha it's so funny to see the difference in outlook between sport and trad climbers. A trad climber loses 50 - 150 dollars worth of cams etc, doesn't get it back and sadly accepts it as a fact. A sport climber loses a draw and wonders how people can sleep at night. Not invoke trying to do the sport/trad debate (really I'm not), just thought it was a funny observation.

Nicely Said Scott. My climbing partner had an epiphany a few weeks ago while at the international climbers festival in Lander, WY. We were discussing what is stealing. Any gear you take in sport that is not your's is stealing. Trad climbing is treasure hunting! Give some get some.

Tradster wrote:If you leave it, expect it to removed. As a climber, I love these booty or theft threads. I must say that we must be the only outdoor users who feel it is OK to leave gear all over the place, and not expect an obvoius outcome. Hikers seldom purposefully leave gear behind, neither do backpackers, kayakers, mountain bikers and most every other outdoor user (excluding ATV and dirt bikers, and power boaters who generally are total slobs). Other users hiking by a crag festooned with quickdraws must think we climbers are the most self-centered slobs around. Reminds me of all the shit piles, and abondoned gear on 8000 meter peaks. I got my jollies, but f*ck cleaning up the mess I made. I'm a climber, so I'm too important to give a real crap. Then I see tape, energy bar wrappers and cig butts at the base of cliffs that only climbers frequent. We are such hypocrites. It is so self-centered. My take: A climber leaves gear either abondoned or what not, but the individual who abondoned it, or couldn't remove it, expects some one to make every effort to get it back to them. Like the chick mentioned in this thread, she leaves it on a three pitch climb, but tells the next party to give it back when they get it. The bitch didn't even think to offer something. Why should I bother with an attitude like that? !

+100. . . except for the "dirt bikers" part. . . geesh, so pretentious.