A hard ethical decision we need input

Pete,

Before its too late...., This is an opportunity for you to rise to a level of reputable generosity and all around "really great guy" status or you can mire around in the conditional and tangible aspects of everything involved and asking everyone's opinion until you either count the "votes" or find one you agree with. When I think of climbing friends and associates, guides and other professionals that have helped me out over the past 38 years, they "did" because they wanted to and expected nothing in return. I have gratitude toward them until the day I am no longer here, and I'll always remember what they did for me despite it might have not been the easy or convenient or profitable way for them to go.
The choice is your yours, but whatever you do now.., it will be all the more easy to do the same next time.
A splendid job bringing it all back down.., now you have to ask yourself why, exactly, did you guys go to all that trouble?

sell the gear to cover the rescue.

Two things I would ask myself in this situation.

Did they intend to send someone to get it or to get it themselves, or were they just going to abandon it?

Did they take reasonable action towards retrieving it?

If the answer to both questions is no then I'd say it's yours. It's hard to tell from what you wrote whether they were maybe planning to go get it later. If they were and you just happened to do it without their asking then I'd say you just did them a favor and some reciprocation is in order.

If on the other hand they didn't make any move towards getting it back, didn't sound like they were going to try and get it back, but were really upset about it. Well, tough cookies.

I think the intent to retrieve the gear is my sticking point because even though legally they have no recourse that I'm aware of, if they made an effort to retrieve the gear then you know they didn't just abandon it. If they did just abandon it then why is there any reason for you to give it back except out of genuine kindness because if they intended to abandon it then they weren't expecting to get it back anyways.

Pete Dronkers wrote:They made no arrangements of their own to have their gear returned.

This is the part that confuses me. The rescue just happened. How do you know they made no arrangements? Did you discuss it with them before your trip? Did you assume, since you found the gear? How do you know they weren't planning to come back and get it next week?

This isn't a stuck cam or a couple of nuts in a bail anchor, and it's not stuff that's been up there for months or years. I'm sort of amazed that a lot of people are telling you to keep this stuff.

Also, I'd say your take on how badly they really needed a rescue, and how much that rescue cost, don't have anything to do with this. Now, the money you spent to have it airlifted out--that's a different story. But I still don't see how that entitles you to keep their gear. You need to discuss this with them.

give it back, but you should be reimbursed for any added service you guys had to pay for. From the article, it sounds like they can work something out with you.

You did a kind thing recovering their gear for them. But I think that's the point -- it's their gear. You know who's gear it is, so return it. They might be generous, too, and give you a reward. But if they don't, you will have done the right thing and that's good.

I would return it and have them pay any additional cost to you for transporting it. If you know who it belongs to you can't keep it. just my $0.02

It's trash left behind by someone who wasn't thoughtful enough to carry it out. No one injured, no one dieing and the storm didn't really sound that bad by AK standards. One night emergency bivy in a snow cave now requires a rescue in AK? WTF!?

It's not like this was a couple of nuts and a bail sling. If they left their entire kit on the mountain and you carried it out it's yours. Period.

Since you seem to be torn about this maybe you want to give it back so you can sleep at night but I would have absolutely no ethical issues with keeping this gear.

If these dipshits were actually in trouble, hurt, overdue, etc. etc. then this would be completely different but they weren't. They got scared and hit the eject button on their new fancy, electronic get out of jail free card. This type of behavior should, at the very least, cost them their abandoned kit if not the entire cost of the rescue and the cost to haul their abandoned trash out of the mountains. If they have any brains at all they will stick with golf, tennis or some other low commitment game. It doesn't seem that mountaineering is for them and I'd think you were actually doing them a favor by not returning this gear and encouraging them to go do some stupid shit like this again.

Edited to add: I am surprised at how many people here are telling you to return it given the circumstances. Alaska climbing is a whole 'nother step up from dicking around on our little hills down here. If you can't pay the price to play the game then maybe you shouldn't be playing. Climbing cannot be sanitized, made safe or made fair. Sometimes shit happens and you have to clean it up. These guys made a huge pile of shit and then sat back while others dove into it for them.

I say again, you should absolutely NOT give this stuff back to the original owners. If it's really eating at you then donate it to a local group that will put it to use or sell it and give the money to a good cause but the original owners should never see this gear again and they should be charged for the costs incurred to transport it off the mountain and dispose of it properly.

You guys did a solid. However, do the right thing and give it back. Its not our place to criticize the decisions these guys made, and to doubly punish them for their errors by keeping the stuff. You need to make sure you are completely reimbursed for the extraction effort before handing it back over.

This is one of those times that people will know who you are by the decisions you make. Thats far more valuable than the profit you'll make selling used gear on ebay.

What's your problem Yarp? They called for aid in a timely manner, used a beacon for a locate, and walked away from a situation they assessed and felt anything more on their part would have ended poorly.

You didn't respond to the call for aid, you aren't paying for this, nothing they did harmed you in any way.

It's just that they called for rescue when they weren't bleeding out and moments from death because you're a better climber than they are; supposedly. So if you're a better climber, what is your problem?

Mark Nelson wrote:What's your problem Yarp? They called for aid in a timely manner, used a beacon for a locate, and walked away from a situation they assessed and felt anything more on their part would have ended poorly. You didn't respond to the call for aid, you aren't paying for this, nothing they did harmed you in any way. It's just that they called for rescue when they weren't bleeding out and moments from death because you're a better climber than they are; supposedly. So if you're a better climber, what is your problem?

Not sure why your personally attacking me but whatever works for ya is fine with me!

Don't see anything in my post to support your accusations or anywhere that I stated I was a better climber. I've never climbed in AK partly because I don't feel I'm a good enough climber yet and mostly because I can't afford to.

I'm really a terrible climber. And a terrible person.

It's all yours. Anyone who leaves gear in the mountains has no claim to it unless they have been seriously injured. The moral compass of our time, Adam Brink, has spoken. There is no further need for discussion on this topic.

Check the state law. I imagine Alaska might not have any specific codes that are relevant though.

It would be fair for them to pay your recovery costs if they get their gear back. On the surface it may reasonably be claimed as abandoned property, although it is also reasonable to say that they had no intension of abandoning their gear, even if they initially did so, soon they might have decided to go retrieve it.

However, it just depends on what social standard you want to go by... the law or some deeper ethical reasoning. I know I'd be appreciative of getting the gear back and would offer to pay all recovery costs, or let you keep an equivalent amount of the gear. How reasonable are they? Assuming the law is on your side, you can always refuse their offer.

Just put yourself in their shoes.

And if you decide to give the gear back and receive no money or thanks, then try to have a positive attitude about it, it's at least either or both good karma for you or bad karma for them.

Why would being seriously injured give someone more of a claim on their abandoned gear? It could be reasoned that they have equal or less of a claim since their fate is due to either chance, negligence, improper risk management, or some combination.

I think ethically there is no clear answer here. But 'good on you' for returning it, I say.

btw... Who's to say how much of the gear 'blew away in the wind'! ;)

Joseph Stover wrote:Why would being seriously injured give someone more of a claim on their abandoned gear?

I would guess that most climbers would agree with me when I say that being injured would be a good reason to leave gear behind. Considering you might be dieing and all. According to the article posted they hit their magic gizmo when they realized that climbing was sometimes dangerous, cold, scary and requires a large reserve of both perseverance and self reliance. ESPECIALLY IN AK! In my humblest of voices let me suggest that reliance on technology in the mountains will simply breed more of this type of behavior.

I'm not a hardman myself so wtf do I know, but I've researched climbing in the great state of Alaska enough to know that a one night unplanned bivy in a snow cave is not normally considered something that out of the ordinary or something worthy of calling for heli evac.

Joseph Stover wrote: btw... Who's to say how much of the gear 'blew away in the wind'! ;)

Right...it's much better to be dishonest about it and try to keep the gear behind their back. That way when you run into them at the crag and they see the rope you're climbing on you can just tell them another lie about how you must have just bought the same one they left in camp! Keep their kit but have the balls to look 'em in the eye and tell them that you're keeping it and why.

First off, good on you for bringing it down. It is hard to say from the outside if they were in a life threating situation or not. If they were in that far over their head, descending may have been a life threatining situation. It is not admirable to call for a rescue becasue you are in over your head, but it beats dying. There are hundreds of cases where hikers are rescued becasue they wandered off of a trail and it got dark. I even read about one on Green Mountain above Boulder (you can see the city lights!).

With that said if they did consider themselves in a life or death situation, they should be happy to be alive and getting the gear back should be the last thing on their minds.

I think that you can justify either option but my opinion is that Karma is worth more than gear anyway!

Yarp wrote: I would guess that most climbers would agree with me when I say that being injured would be a good reason to leave gear behind. Considering you might be dieing and all.

So your point here is that they were (according to you) inexperienced and got lost on a mountain and called for a rescue, hence undeserving of their gear being returned. Now, had they been inexperienced and that inexperience caused one to break a leg while lost on the mountain then you feel they would deserve to get their gear back. To me this makes no sense. The rescued climbers made a decision before a dangerous situation caused either of them a major injury. I don't think getting injured and being rescued should call for different ethics than getting lost and being rescued.

Whatever the situation is the OP took a substantial risk removing the gear and returning it to civilization. Added to that risk is the financial cost of transporting the gear. The OP is definitely deserving of financial recuperation for this act alone.

For me the question here is if the gear is considered abandoned? Are climbers given a set amount of time to get back to a bit of gear? It had been up there for a week with no attempt to retrieve it. However, I imagine that after a traumatic event returning to the mountain is not high on one's list of things to-do. Financially it may not have been in the cards to return to the mountain either. And, I imagine the rescued climber's wife would veto any such event.

I would not keep the gear, but I would demand financial restitution for the effort taken to rescue it. Ethically you can probably make an argument either way. Legally it is going to be ambiguous. Personally I would probably talk to the guy's wife, let her sort it out.

I can't resist chiming in on this one because it really is an ethical dilemma and the law provides a good theory for analysis of the situation.

The law recognizes the concepts of "equitable lien" and "unjust enrichment."

The elements of the doctrine are set forth in a treatise (called a "restatement of law").

According the Restatement:

"Where property of one person can by a proceeding in equity be reached by another as security for a claim on the ground that otherwise the former would be unjustly enriched, an equitable lien arises."

Restatement (2d) of Restitution, Section 161 (1937).

Specifically, the elements of an "equitable lien are: (1) a debt, duty or obligation owing by one person to another; and (2) a "res" to which that obligation fastens, which can be identified or described with reasonable certainty." ("Res" is a legalese for "thing" or "identifiable property").

Many of the persons responding to this thread so far high upon this concept with their remarks along the lines of:

Sam Stephens: "I like the idea of selling stuff to cover the expenses that you incurred retrieving it"

ScootrV: "If you want to give it back, make them pay for your effeorts to retrieve, the air taxi and the drive or they deserve nothimg."

Jimbo: "If they make an unsolicited offer to fully reimburse you then give them there stuff back. If they don't, they're A-holes anyway and you should keep it."

I think you may have an equitable lien on the recovered property in amount sufficient to repay your efforts and actual costs.

If so, you can them pay for the stuff based upon the value of your services and the expenses incurred. I have little doubt this value EXCEEDS the "fair market value" of the property. Hence, cutting out the BS, you may keep the stuff unless they offer to pay whatever amount YOU SAY (within reason) your efforts and expenses are worth. That's "equitable." If they don't offer or don't pay, equity is NOT on their side because your situation involved heroic effort, far above and beyond the call of duty. In fact, you acted even though the law and ethics would say you had NO duty to ferry out their gear and return it to them gratis.

This does not mean ALL BOOTY is "finders keepers." I think the extreme nature of the physical circumstances and your substantial effort and expense take this case far outside the parameter of "normal booty."

Another legal analysis under which you would owe the rescued persons nothing arises from the dichotomy between "lost" and "abandoned" property. Courts return "lost property" to the original owner but will not do the same for property "abandoned" by its owner. Think about the difference between property "lost" inside one's own home and "discovered" by someone else versus the property left for pickup by the garbage man. When they bailed on Mt. Hayes, I don't think they had any plans to return and retrieve it; but of course, now that you obliged and returned it to civilization, the rescued persons can easily claim they intended all along to go back and get their stuff (an easy claim to make since it cannot be refuted).

I bet an Alaska jury would find in your favor and against the loser(s) who threw in the towel and asked to be bailed out when a little snow started to fall. I get from the story at least one the rescued chumps was a member of our Armed Forces. A sad commentary on our military. Civilian mountaineers would have shown more pluck and rescued their own sorry asses.

Auction the gear on Ebay with all proceeds benefiting the Access Fund.

A climber accepts the risk of having to make the decision to leave gear behind, regardless if it is a result of fear or injury. One or the other does not give a climber a more ethical right to have the abandoned gear returned. Bad luck doesn't impart extra rights that one otherwise would not have.

Thanks for the legal explanation, Terry, seems perfectly fair.

I still think its a good idea to return the gear, and hopefully they will be thankful and equitable for your effort. I sure would.