Movie on ethics?

I am looking for real solutions without violence or further damage to areas. I started working on a film about where ethics have gone and got some really negative feedback from the community(local). I think much of it stemmed from too many folks either not wanting to go on record or not wanting to point fingers.
As a route developer I take this topic rather seriously. Not just chipping and gluing, also the lying of ascents for self promotion.
I was just wondering what some of the people in this "community" had to say on the topic.
Thanks,
Tom
PS: this is not a rant

If you indeed received a lot of negative feedback, I would suspect that you were trying to push a certain agenda that people didn't like. Was that the case? Are you advocating for certain ethics, or just trying to catalogue the variety of viewpoints out there?

I agree with the sentiment of not wanting to point fingers. I don't like it when people tell me how I should climb, and I try not to tell others how they should do it.

I was trying to keep unbiased and show all sides. I think most people just want to stay out of the picture. I would like to represent all sides and let viewers come away with their own judgement. In my experience ethics vary from crag or region but candidly most agree with simple truths. I guess in the end we all want to turn a blind eye and keep quit.
Here in New Mexico people such as Timy Fairfield chip shit all the time and it sucks. But my motivation is not to tell people what to do as inform them of what goes on. But lets face it, If you chip a hold, you know it's cheating.

Well this is a ballsy project I'll give you that much for sure.

For the record I am a trad ethics person so my opinion is admittedly very one sided.

My climbing background: Started climbing in 86 and did a lot of climbing in the Black Hills Needles in the early 90's a very turmoil time in the area and climbing ethics in general.

One point that I would be willing to put on the record for you on video if you want. I personally feel that some of the newer climbing styles are a theft of the future. Here's my point in the Hills once rap bolting was excepted in the Rushmore area most of the routes were established in a very short period of time. Leaving nothing for future climbers. When I was still there a young climber told me he wanted to rap bolt a route in the trad only area. His reasoning was that all of the good routes at Rushmore were already done.

I personally think that if the Rushmore area had been established with a trad ethic, on the lead from stances or hooking it would have taken a lot longer for the area to be fully established. Thus leaving something for future generations.

I should think that it is obvious by now that what is considered impossible today is just tomorrows test piece.

In 1990 I was working at Sylvan Rocks Climbing School. One day while I was in the office the phone rang and a guy from South Dakota Pubic TV was calling asking about doing a video on the Needles. I ended up appearing in that video "Strong Fingers and a Stout Heart Rockclimbing in the Needles of SD". To tell the truth it's a bit embarrassing for me to watch myself from 20 years ago. You should contact Todd Meckling of South Dakota Public TV if he is still there that is. There are some great quotes in the video. Paul Muehl may he rest in peace made some great comments, he is gone now so the only way to hear his point of view is to use the old tape. Paul Piana and other Rushmore developers give their points of view as well.

Like I said a ballsy project good luck to you. Judging from some of the recent posts you have your work cut out for you.

Get some quotes from Didier Berthod in "The Sharp End." He chops bolts and hangs them over his bed as trophies. He's sure to have an opinion for you ;)

I've found when you receive negative feedback it's because people retort when they hear things that they don't want to.

All the more to you to outline the ethics for your area, its a hard subject cover definitely. You won't make friends, but it's something that everyone in every area should consider.

thomas ellis wrote:I was trying to keep unbiased and show all sides. Here in New Mexico people such as Timy Fairfield chip shit all the time and it sucks. But my motivation is not to tell people what to do as inform them of what goes on. But lets face it, If you chip a hold, you know it's cheating.

You are not being unbiased. Sounds like your beef is with Timy. If you truly want to show all sides, don't immediately negate one, unless you are Fox 'news'.

you are ranting, and you do it again here:

mountainproject.com/v/new_m…

Are we talking about chipping like enhancing, comfortizing, enlarging a hold or creating one? Here in Lander, Wyoming, comfortizing is an encouraged practice, some holds are enhanced, and holds were sometimes created in unclimbable sections at Wild Iris and Sinks (yes, 15' of overhanging completely blank rock is still unclimbable, even for the 'next generation'). Holds are even removed if they affect the flow. The goal is to make the climbing pleasant and consistent.

Or by 'cheating' you saying Timy is chipping to establish problems to make them easier? I have never met him, but according to the mags from some years ago, he is strong. Why would he chip established problems to make them easier?

thomas ellis wrote: In my experience ethics vary from crag or region but candidly most agree with simple truths. Here in New Mexico people such as Timy Fairfield chip shit all the time and it sucks.

Are you saying Timy is violating these 'simple truths', and if so, what are they?

If your simple truth is that no rock is to be modified at any time for any reason, then this Timy comfortizes a hold in an area where the practice is tolerated or even encouraged, then your simple truth is violated. However, many in the climbing community, mine included, accept and even encourage this practice,

If your simple truth is that Timy chipped a hold to make it easier on an established route in an area that does not accept these ethics, then that is a much different situation. For example, the original dirtbagger Alf chipped a line on the 45 degree wall in Hueco. He was permanently banned from the park and climbers supported the action.

Honestly, if you are going to do a movie on the subject, then you need to think through the subject a bit more and see it from some angles other than your own.

HA! you are the audience! By "unbiased" i was speaking of the film. I am EXTREMELY biased. I see all forms of chipping as cheating and dumbing down the sport. If a wall is blank then it was not meant to be climbed.
The line I refer to left of Screaming Jihad was very chipped. I had been working the moves to no avail but could see it coming to fruition for someone stronger or more talented. To add insult to injury, my friend Carlo Torres and I found that area and were nice enough to show Timy the line.
But this is not the first instance. I have climbed in 35 states and established many routes and boulder problems and seen the same occurrences through out. I was in Ten Sleep this fall and was amazed by the wealth of rock. I thought "this is the motherload". The amount of manufacturing there felt like a such a cowardly approach to what should have been regarded as a monumental gift of quality lines. Timy (and you jethro obviously) see 100' line with a fifteen foot blank section at 80' as an inconvenience to be dealt with. I see an 80' route.
For the record: Timy is very strong and we have been friends for a long time but it doesn't give him the right or justify his actions.
As someone above pointed out, I am not going to make many friends doing this. But hey, fuck em.
One last thing. Two years ago I started this project by interviewing one of my climbing heros about his involvement in the manufacturing of holds in New Mexico and he was incredible. We went out to some of the areas and he and my wife and I climbed some of his routes. I don't look down on him or judge him for what he did. I do however see the reason in exploring the question of its continuation. What I thought was impossible in 1991 when I started mountaineering is play stuff for the next set. I think its time we started playing fair.
Sorry for the length of this
just got a lot of pennies on the subject
Tom

Just to "drill" a point for Jethro and Bruno. What I am saying in part on this post is my opinion on the subject of ethics and my stance. The film will not have my opinion. Only those of the people I interview. I asked Timy to be in the film and he ended up freaking out in the middle of Stone Age rock Gym. Do you think maybe he might of felt a little guilty? I don't know.
And if chipping and gluing is acceptable where you climb and you don't see a problem then Please(I am being honest here) speak into my camera and go on the record.

Tom, we are Stone Age Climbing Gym, Stone Age rock Gym is in Manchester CT. We get waivers from their website periodically. But if you did head out east to interview Timy that would be real dedication.

HAHA! Thanks Lee I just spit up water onto my key board!

thomas ellis wrote: I see all forms of chipping as cheating and dumbing down the sport. I don't look down on him or judge him for what he did. I do however see the reason in exploring the question of its continuation. Tom

If in one sentence you say chipping is cheating and dumbing down the sport, and then you say don't judge a specific person that did it, you are blantantly contradicting yourself. Why would I trust that you are unbiased?

OK, you are simple so I will try again. I don't judge him for what he DID.
I Do cast judgement on future actions......
Next: I am very biased!!!!!
Next: The film is not about ME.
Next: Do you want to be interviewed?

I think in order to make a non-biased film on ethics it would be easier not show your hand in any forum. Otherwise I can see how it would be all too easy to get negative feedback from anyone who feels strongly about their personal ethic if it is much different than your own. If you want to present something from a purely observational standpoint than you need to have your questions be born from that space. You can't fish for any connection to your rationalization of your own personal ethic, that is, without being prepared to snag a lunker and perhaps break a line.

Even if your film is to serve a purpose other than observational, i.e. to look for real solutions without violence or further damage to areas, I think that you would get more honest answers from a wider demographic if you were to practice a bit of subterfuge on yourself. Not in order to mislead or maliciously deceive anyone but to come off as being a neutral observer.

I would gladly share some about my ethic and how it evolved to it's present state.

I have to agree with you Tim but I have already made myself clear. For the record I have chipped holds in the past (15 years ago) and used glue and been called out. My opinion is not coming from a clean history and I don't hate or waste any other emotion on the subject.
With that said, I feel as though I can still keep an unbiased view while filming. I might even change my mind on things. I have evolved through out the years and hope to keep evolving.
If you would really be comfortable with me interviewing you that would be great. You can say what ever you need to say. That goes for all of you. You can even say "your an unbiased exchipping gluey piece of shit" I would just like to see a dialog form that may help people form their own opinion in the future. I truthfully want candid opinion.
Maybe it won't work but it sure would be fun.

jethro wrote: Here in Lander, Wyoming, comfortizing is an encouraged practice, some holds are enhanced, and holds were sometimes created in unclimbable sections at Wild Iris and Sinks (yes, 15' of overhanging completely blank rock is still unclimbable, even for the 'next generation'). Holds are even removed if they affect the flow. The goal is to make the climbing pleasant and consistent.

Jethro the unclimbable even for the next generation comments seems pointed at my post if not and I am off base well it wouldn't be the first time. Whats wrong with there just not being a route there at all even if no one ever climbs that section of rock ever. Obviously there is no shortage of rock in the world why do you need to climb on every part of every rock. Just my .02. "Holds are even removed if they affect flow" you sound like some of the whiny mountain bikers I know. "The goal is to make the climbing pleasant and consistent" This boggles my mind if you want pleasant and consistent you could stay in the gym. Obviously my .02 is coming from a very biased point of view.

As far as Thomas being able to make an unbiased movie I think it all comes down to editing. Another climber who was in the Needles video was Pete DeLannoy he made the comment to me afterward that he was concerned about how the thing would be edited. He was fine with owning his words just concerned about how much would end up on the cutting room floor so to speak.

Thomas to be truly unbiased you should ask for someone from the other camp to join you in the project. Especially in the editing room as it would be too easy to change the nature of someones comments in post production. Even if it's unintentional having a bias will effect your work no matter how unbiased you think you can be. If there is someone from the other camp there during editing they can make sure their side gets it's fair share of time. And if you aren't fair they can let the world know you weren't being unbiased or better yet let their community know that you were unbiased in the final product.

Thanks Tim M. Hopefully I could use you in the future. The problem is finding someone from the other camp? I think I know the right guy and no one(who knows their climbing history) would question his judgement.
Last night my wife made a funny observation. She said "it might turn out biased if no one with a different ethic wants to get involved". We went on to have a discussion about films suck as those and she chimed in "just have a disclaimer saying you tried to show both sides".
I feel as though many of these issues will arise on their own and the solution will seem far less of a problem.
So how many people from mountainproject.com would like to be interviewed?

You can count me in, anytime.

So I too am from Lander and I'll use my real name and give you my opinion and try not to disrespect anyone (although I am sure I will). I have done some route development here and on some granite crags at the Sweetwater and at Vedauwoo. The pervailing ethic in Lander is to comfortize the holds. The dolomite is razor sharp and you could literally get one attempt every three days on some of the harder routes if this were not done. Is that chipping? I don't personally think so. Heck, no one wants to climb routes around here that aren't properly cleaned, and some first ascentionists get a bad rap for not filing enough. I have used a file on every climb I've put up on the dolomite here. All seven of them. I have not filed any granite. But I have killed my share of lichen and trundled a few boulders.

Does everyone stop at just filing down the sharp edges of holds and pockets? Of course not. The majority of the routes have been just comfortized, but we do have several routes with an added hold or even many chipped pockets. I don't know where I stand on this issue. I am obviously against making something easier by adding a hold, but I am not so sure that I oppose making something actually possible. Unless humanity evolves we aren't going to be able to dyno past a twenty foot span of blank rock. Personally I think that manufacturing a route would just take too long and I wouldn't want to hang around in a harness that much, but I have climbed on and enjoyed such routes.

So to summarize, chipping mostly bad, comfortizing good. Feel free to rake me over the coals for my views and not climb on any of my routes if you are morally outraged. I would say all of this in front of a camera, but I am not famous or a prolific route developer or very strong, so I don't think it would sell many dvds.

Hey Tom R, I would be more than happy to interview you. I am not worried about getting people who are famous. I am actually more interested in getting people from lots of different communities with varying opinions. It sounds like you qualify. There is a chance I will be up in Wyoming this spring sometime so maybe we could get in touch before hand.
Tom E

thomas ellis wrote:That goes for all of you. You can even say "your an unbiased exchipping gluey piece of shit" I would just like to see a dialog form that may help people form their own opinion in the future. I truthfully want candid opinion. Maybe it won't work but it sure would be fun.

Classic, Tom. Though I think it really should say "your are a heavily biased, hypocritical exchipping, yadda yadda yadda", no that that is my view of you.

Something nobody has brought up yet is the classic that is about to loose a hold, it's been around for years, to glue or not to glue. There is/was a thread on this subject based around a route back east??? recently.