who has the right of way?

while lead climbing a 3 pitch route with a party of 3 we encountered a rappel on their way down. myself on the lead was at the first rap station belaying the second climber up. the first on the rap reached my belay station and asked that i moved my gear so they could continue to rappel off the anchor. the anchor that i was at before they decided to rap down. she anchors off. then my second and third make it up and anchor. the next on the rappel comes down on a second rope hitting us with it after he threw it down. while this is going on another party is starting a lead up to the same belay/rap station that the four of us are on. now the first of the second party coming up reaches the belay/rap station. it is already overly crowded. we asked the party on rappel to stop above our station but insisted it was okay to continue down. same goes for the party coming up. who was wrong and what should have we done. this happens way to much where we climb and the situation almost got real ugly 100 ft off the ground.

what are the odds.....and then lightning struck the same place 3 times too.

What goes up must come down... If they were on the way down, they must have been there first?

I agree with Joe. Leaders have right away while climbing. Rappelers should be allowed to move quickly past upcoming parties. Any one on the ground should have patience till belay #1 is approaching emptiness. I personally would have told my second or third to hang a sec, clipped up a quick setup for rappelers, told them to move their a** and then continued on my way.

This may not apply at all, but if you ever arrive at a belay station on a multipitch climb and there are rings and not just bolts, try to avoid using the rings if it's possible, especially if it's a common rappel line. Build an anchor on the bolts or elsewhere (if it's occasionally possible) and leave the rings in case anyone comes down. Of course sometimes you can't qute get your biner into the bolt the ring is attached to, so you gotta use the ring. But it's still courteous to try to make it a habit.

i guess this is what i get for going to the gunks on a weekend.

You didn't say you were in the Gunks. Preserve rules state that leaders have the right of way over rapellers and topropers. General courtesy suggests that letting people rap through when there's room is the way to go, but it doesn't sound like they were being very courteous.

johnL wrote:What are you doing climbing a route that crowded? Or even in an area that crowded. Time to put some miles on your feet to solve your problems.

I am amazed this even had to be said....smarten up.

From the Williams' guide:

"PRECEDENCE OF CLIMBERS OVER RAPPELLERS: Should there be a lead climber on the route, rappellers must request permission to rappel and not assume that right. This is both courteous and a good safety practice."

I hope this is helpful.

-Andrew

How about don't climb up another party's ass when the descent from the route is by rap? Wow, what a simple solution.

And sorry for all you quoting some guidebook author...if you don't have the courtesy ask before you come sniffin up my ass on a Grade I route, when you know good and well that I have to rap the route, don't expect me to have the courtesy to ask before I rap through you. Courtesy works both ways, golden rule, etc, etc.

I'm curious where you were at the Gunks. 99% of the ledges at the Gunks have ample places to build gear anchors. If, for example, you go up to the GT ledge and you can build a gear anchor but out of laziness you chose to use bolts that at there for rapping, then I cannot really blame the party on top of you.

They woke up earlier, got to the top before you... Obviously they should be careful throwing their ropes and they should wait until no one is lead climbing below them, but it sounds like you were already at the anchor. Of course, you can also argue that climbers should walk off from the top rather than rap... but with a place as crowded as the Gunks, you need to have courtesy on both sides. I think a climbing party taking away a rap anchor because they don't want to build a gear anchor is pretty rude.

You Gunks climbers crack me up.

Are the anchors there for rappelling or for belaying? In the Boulder area there is a climb in Eldorado Canyon State Park where fixed anchors are placed most of the way up but only intended for rappelling. I've rapped that route using these anchors only to find climbers using them as belays. Even though a perfectly good belay anchor can be built next to them they use the rap anchors. In that case they are in the wrong and should give up the anchor to the party descending.

Generally though it is safety first. Usually when in a cluster f#$k like you describe I'm more than happy to tell the party below me to just wait and I'd refuse to share the anchor with them. Meanwhile, I'd encourage the party rapping down to hurry up and go ahead and finish the rappel. When they are gone and clearly out of the way I would continue climbing the route.

Essentially your question has been answered from an amalgomation of responses so far. In short though: use your knoggin logically and adapt to each situation to expedite the transfers and cross-overs for each party. Develop your own system to avoid/deal with such an issue. Hopefully every other party (and this will not always be evident) will have their own system, and courtesy, to deal with such an encounter.

Firstly, the second rappeler should wait for your #2 to gain the belay before heading down. Then you could allow both rapellers to pass through and rappel to the ground, hopefully swiftly enough so as not to wait so long (in your situation it would be three raps, which shouldn't take too long). Then bring up your #3 from the ground. The third party of climbers shouldn't have even begun leading until your #2 was seconding the second pitch. That would allow ample room for everybody. Once your #3 is seconding, their #2 would be seconding the 1st pitch.

Personally if I was in the third group I would have said "fuck it, lets climb something else".

My question to the OP: What eventuated after you guys got to the top? Did you rap down into the third party? (I'm assuming this is a 2 pitch climb). What happened and how did you deal with it?

Brian Abram wrote:This may not apply at all, but if you ever arrive at a belay station on a multipitch climb and there are rings and not just bolts, try to avoid using the rings if it's possible, especially if it's a common rappel line. Build an anchor on the bolts or elsewhere (if it's occasionally possible) and leave the rings in case anyone comes down. Of course sometimes you can't qute get your biner into the bolt the ring is attached to, so you gotta use the ring. But it's still courteous to try to make it a habit.

Word Brian. I totally agree. I sometimes girth hitch a chain link above the ring in busy climbs. Be creative and accommodating but most of all be safe. If a group is causing you to compromise the safety of you or your climber it is totally cool to tell them to wait until your climber is off belay.

Starboard tack and leward over windward.

we walked over to another rap station that was not busy.common courtesy.