Eccentric Training

does anyone know about negative training? By this I mean the eccentric movement at it's max to the point where you can only barely control it. Example: pull up with both arms to top release one and slowly lower down. But you couldn't stop the lowering. Also any thoughts on application of this to finger training?

one type of negative training involves eating high quantities of calorie rich food, remaining on your couch, and convincing yourself that all your gear is prone to failure. guaranteed to lower your onsight abilities by 1 full number grade per month. :)

I am one one the few people in the US who has been certified in Negative Training, you useless pathetic little worm! More than happy to dash your dreams and kill all enthusiasm for a fee.

Another form of negative training is when you drink excessively while training then abstain when going for the send. After a few days on the wagon your cravings for booze can get you up just about anything. Not to mention the fact that you can still see straight in the afternoon and double the length of your climbing days. Although not always known as such this is practiced to good effect by many climbers the world over.

I took this concept to the next level (i.e. no booze at all) and have found it has had a negative effect on my climbing because no one wants to climb with a grumpy straight laced guy, and I now lack all motivation to send hard routes.

All the more reason for a mountain-monkeys beer night.

Greetings hombre,

To actually address your question...

Eccentric training is a part of a general approach referred to as High Intensity Training (H.I.T.). Eccentric training is backed up by scientific research that shows that most micro-tears in muscles (the wear that builds strength) occurs on the negative side of the repetition. That is pretty fascinating and rather counter-intuitive.

I often finish off a muscle group with eccentrics and it seems to have some genuine merit. I like it best working with cable exercises and ab machines. Sometimes I just finish off the last rep or two with an extremely slow release. Likewise, on a wall, i like to down climb on big jugs (no feet) lowering myself in super slow motion. could probably to the same on a campus.

I think it is a great little spike in the routine. Have a go and tell us what you think.

Cheers,
john

Haha thanks for actually helping with answering the question. I have been doing negative training with weighted pull up and one arm let go's. But I don't know if it's helping out of the norm because my training varies so much as it is. Thanks for the answer though.

cmsclimber wrote:I have been doing negative training with weighted pull up and one arm let go's. But I don't know if it's helping out of the norm because my training varies so much as it is.

Is this your application of it to finger training? Because such things are not really finger training (well, you probably know this).

A little food for thought: eccentric reps are best suited for larger muscle groups that perform what are called gross motor movements. Hand movements don't really fall into this realm.

Consider also that all climbing grip exercises are isometric in nature. Therefore, I am not sure how you would perform eccentric reps on the finger flexors without using some kind of hand grip trainer...which has little to no real application to climbing grip.

Mike Lane wrote:I am one one the few people in the US who has been certified in Negative Training, you useless pathetic little worm! More than happy to dash your dreams and kill all enthusiasm for a fee.

Nice.

No, definitely my application to biceps and back. I was merely asking about the fingers, haven't tried anything of the sorts. But think about when you make a move. A dynamic one and you stick the next hold open handed. To make the next move you have to ball up into a crimp. I've found that can be the hardest part. So I can see how movement in the forearm muscles actually could have a benefit to climbing. But yes I still don't see how to put this into action with training the forearm. I think doing something with movement at max would probably be relatively dangerous for the tendons haha

cmsclimber wrote:But think about when you make a move. A dynamic one and you stick the next hold open handed.

After sticking a dynamic move open-handed(ly), I guess it's true your finger flexors could undergo momentary eccentric load.

cmsclimber wrote:To make the next move you have to ball up into a crimp. I've found that can be the hardest part.

Crimping is concentric. (Edited to add: actually, the initiation of crimping is concentric, after which it is isometric.) Although eccentric training can sometimes improve concentric strength, I am not sure in such a case as crimping this would really be statistically significant, nor worth the time spent doing such tedious exercise.

cmsclimber wrote:So I can see how movement in the forearm muscles actually could have a benefit to climbing. But yes I still don't see how to put this into action with training the forearm. I think doing something with movement at max would probably be relatively dangerous for the tendons haha

Are you saying you think grip trainers would benefit climbing grip strength? I am very unconvinced. But regardless, I think you would be better suited to sticking with more conventional means of training grip strength.

There is currently so little research on isometric strength training that your best bet is to either follow conventional wisdom, or do your own experimentation. If you follow the latter route, I can tell you from personal experience that it is very difficult to draw meaningful conclusions given the vast number of uncontrollable variables and the low sample size of one.

Now, if your goal is unrelated to climbing...say, being able to do a one-arm pullup, then I think "negatives" would be helpful.

Mike Anderson wrote:There is currently so little research on isometric strength training that your best bet is to either follow conventional wisdom, or do your own experimentation.

I am unclear where the OP mentioned he wanted to do isometric training.

(Although all climbing grip training is isometric for the most part, regardless of the fact the OP was not talking about training this way.)

Edited to add:

Dana wrote:Isn't one of the features of eccentric training the large amount of time needed for recovery because of the intense demands?

Yes.

I think maybe Mike was trying to say we know so little about isometric training. And we don't know things like how training full movement would effect the isometric strength of a muscle.

Well, he said "any thoughts on application of this to finger training?" Since our fingers mostly act isometrically in climbing, that's where the connection is.

My point is that I would be skeptical of any person claiming to know the effect of "negatives" on isometric finger strength, but the only way we will know is to try it. It seems like a very risky proposition to me, though.