How many other Trad Climbers out there do Sport to get Strong! I do!

good post kayte!

That brief period of craziness was a LONG time ago. Of course, now Jay is as accomplished on bolted lines as he is on traditional rock, so I don't get to feel superior anymore. I just enjoy remembering that, at one point, my projects were hard for him too.

:)

So, anyone have any beta on the range of how long modern bolts are designed/expected to last? (understanding there are important variables)

Shawn Mitchell wrote:So, anyone have any beta on the range of how long modern bolts are designed/expected to last? (understanding there are important variables)

What happens is that the locals at any particular area monitor how well they are holding up. When things need work, it tends to get done.
We are starting an anchor replacement program at Castlewood in conjunction with the Park, as those bolts are north of 20 years old and need inspection. Being in a regulated zone, maintenance there requires approval. Bolts have been replaced at Shelf Road. Penetente does not seem to hold a population of locals, and it shows with the state of its bolts. But to answer your question, I would generally say 20 years would be when to really begin checking them.

Killis Howard wrote:I see a LOT of bad old bolts out there

I hear what yer sayin, but in all my years of wanking around on bolts I've only ever witnessed one bolt failure, and that was in saturated sandstone, pulling straight out (not counting split-shaft 1/4-ers I've pulled out with my fingers). I've witnessed natural gear fall out/pull countless times.

The nice thing about splitter cracks is, as long as you have the gear, you can have a TR the whole way.

That's not so on old-school sport routes. Coyne Crack is way less scary than Heinous Cling.

Matt Toensing wrote: Says who?? How are you to tell someone your opinion of something that you think is scary? And for being expensive, how do you know that he doesn't have some extra cash lying around. Ice climbing is great and when you are learning to climb, which will for sure be on TR, it is safe and if you are comfortable on a rope, then you shouldn't be scared. I for the most part climb traditionally and have little sport climbing under my belt. Just my opinion of you, Phil, telling someone about something they have never done and you probably have little experience with.

The internet needs a tongue in cheek/sarcasm button.

Anyways, I don't care. you can call me an asshole. I'll still jokingly tell people never to ice climb because you don't know when the wall is gonna collapse.

Phil Lauffen wrote:you can call me an asshole. I'll still jokingly tell people never to ice climb

And a puckered one at that!

(I don't climb ice either)

Phil Lauffen wrote: The internet needs a tongue in cheek/sarcasm button. Anyways, I don't care. you can call me an asshole. I'll still jokingly tell people never to ice climb because you don't know when the wall is gonna collapse.

Have you been on a wall that has collapsed?? Have you fallen on ice protection before??

Matt Toensing wrote: Have you been on a wall that has collapsed??

thats not what I said. I said you don't know when that wall is gonna collapse. and you don't.

Phil Lauffen wrote: thats not what I said. I said you don't know when that wall is gonna collapse. and you don't.

Anyways kid, gain a little experience in Boulder. You are probably from the widwest when in fact I am one if the few born in Boulder. Ice changes with passing seasons but at the molecular level, h20 is strong at low temperatures. One self has a particular comfort level with activities they enjoy. With experience, you gain that comfort.

Don't tell people what to do based off of your inexperienced judgement.

Monomaniac wrote: The nice thing about splitter cracks is, as long as you have the gear, you can have a TR the whole way. That's not so on old-school sport routes. Coyne Crack is way less scary than Heinous Cling.

Good point. I never looked at it this way.

Matt Toensing wrote: Anyways kid

oh yeah, because you turned 21 5 days ago you can call me 'kid'....
btw, have you ever fallen on gear on ice? I don't think so...

On top of the reasons listed above, ice climbing appears to be for those whose mothers didn't love them.

And don't assume you know where I am from.

Phil Lauffen wrote: On top of the reasons listed above, ice climbing appears to be for those whose mothers didn't love them.

WOW...that is quite the statement.

I have only been ice climbing once, and it was on top rope so not much experience to base my opinion. However it is something I want to get into more because it was a ton of fun.

And for the record, my mother loves me very much.

saxfiend wrote: Ben's sort of a special case. He was forced by Shannon Stegg and Paul Barnes to undergo aversion therapy, kinda like in the movie "A Clockwork Orange." They tied him to a chair and used specially-modified gri-gri's to hold his eyes open, then they made him watch hours of sport climbing videos while funnelling Milk of Magnesia down his gullet as Boy George tunes played at high volume in the background. So maybe you can sympathize with why Ben doesn't enjoy sport climbing a whole lot. :) JL

That's rich. My sport-aversion does manifest itself in ugly ways from time to time. Sometimes people retaliate. It's true.

Shawn Mitchell wrote:Paco and Ben, I'm dubious. Like you, I own a resume of almost exclusive trad climbing. I might even explain (rationalize?) that in terms similar to Ben's. But really? Do we climb so much that adding some sport has to squeeze out the richer trad outings we prefer?

With a "real job", night school, work travel, wife, etc., my climbing time is so limitied that I want to maximize every second of it. It's not that I climb "so much".

With the exception of the footwork mentioned by Jay Knower, the added crimp strentgh, and the stamina helped along by sport climbing, I see no benefit provided. As someone said above, the best way to train for 5.9/5.10/5.11/5.13 trad is to climb those routes. You will progress slower, but I feel this the better way for me, at least.

Also, and this is only my opinion, I see no intrinsic value to clip ups. Not so with traditional routes. They're "cleaner", typically more aethetic and natural, usually in better settings, away from crowds, and accomplished with the select few like minded folks in the SouthEast or close family.

Those three factors are why approximately 98% of the routes I climb are not sport routes.

As an aside, in the presence of two trusted partners and my two brothers, I did tell my new sister in law on her first climbing trip, after she achieved the requisite, joyous, googly-eyed reaction to topping out her first few climbs, that she would be better for it if she never took a hold on a sport route. Although not true for many, deep down, I believe this to be true for me and 'mine'.

BirminghamBen wrote: With a "real job", night school, work travel, wife, etc., my climbing time is so limitied that I want to maximize every second of it. It's not that I climb "so much". With the exception of the footwork mentioned by Jay Knower, the added crimp strentgh, and the stamina helped along by sport climbing, I see no benefit provided. As someone said above, the best way to train for 5.9/5.10/5.11/5.13 trad is to climb those routes. You will progress slower, but I feel this the better way for me, at least. Also, and this is only my opinion, I see no intrinsic value to clip ups. Not so with traditional routes. They're "cleaner", typically more aethetic and natural, usually in better settings, away from crowds, and accomplished with the select few like minded folks in the SouthEast or close family. Those three factors are why approximately 98% of the routes I climb are not sport routes. As an aside, in the presence of two trusted partners and my two brothers, I did tell my new sister in law on her first climbing trip, after she achieved the requisite, joyous, googly-eyed reaction to topping out her first few climbs, that she would be better for it if she never took a hold on a sport route. Although not true for many, deep down, I believe this to be true for me and 'mine'.

I agree with that. my best experiences climbing have always been trad.

Phil Lauffen wrote: I agree with that. my best experiences climbing have always been trad.

Mine too. Most definitely. Not even close.

However, the thread is does sport get you strong, and with that I have to agree. Whether it translate into climbing trad better, etc., that's a separate issue for the individual climber given their skill, technique, leading head, etc. Personally, however, the strongest I've ever been was following two weeks of sport climbing in Italy.

I kind of had an edge however since I was climbing with a bunch of guys sponsored by La Sportiva who could just send, do laps on 7b and cs, climb 7as with weight belts and the like. I'd climb with them until my arms started cramping and then climb easy or take a rest day the following day and repeat. When I got back to Josh, I was flashing 5.11+/12a trad. If I did fall, it was not figuring out a sequence, etc., not because I was pumped.

20 yrs and 20 lbs later, I'd love to move some of that mojo back.

matt, judging by your comments to phil and looking at your info, you are young and inexperienced. i hope that you will be careful ice climbing, as it is one of the most unforgiving things on earth.

I haven't read through all the posts, but will when I have more time, as I'm sure there are some inspiring posts, and great advice in this thread.

Besides being a hiker, and scrambler before I started climbing, I've never really trained for climbing. My female hiking partner, and I didn't know any climbers, when I decided to get into climbing, and my first technical rock climb was my very first lead (with my friend who was a brand new belayer, ugh!); it was a 5.7 sport route which scared the heck out of me, then I TR'd one 5.8 after that (I rigged the gear anchor, with what little trad gear I had purchased at the time; thanks to John Long's "How To" book!), and led a run-out 5.8 sport route (didn't know it was run-out at the time), and that one terrified me, and my partner, but I survived those first two leads, obviously, and with no falls, or hangs (Hell no, I'm not falling, or trusting this gear)! I finally found some local climbers who soon became my trad mentors, and who didn't really like sport climbing; I quickly realized I preferred climbing long routes (easy to low moderate) in the peaceful canyons, and enjoyed placing, and removing gear, and was tickled by the whole mechanical aspect of trad climbing.

I know if I jumped on hard sport regularly, and/or worked on my moves at a climbing gym, I'd be a better, and stronger trad climber today. I've been to a climbing gym only a few times, but just couldn't get into the scene, and I haven't climbed much sport over the years, and I haven't been interested in doing laps on hard sport routes, as I tend to get bored at the mere thought of working the same moves, over, and over. It's a personality flaw. I can't stand sitting, and /or climbing at short sport, and/or trad crags for longer than I have to, and end up fantasizing about looking for reptiles, and rocks or wanting to just walk off, and do something else. I also don't care for crowded areas (which the more popular sport crags tend to be) when I'm in the desert, or mountains; I see enough people at work, at friends homes, parties, and when I'm in the city, and other places. It's too distracting for me; climbing with all the noise, and such at crags.

I'm happiest on long, easy to moderate trad routes where I'm committed, and can get the job done; it clears my head, the views are amazing, and it's so peaceful when it's just my partner, and I. Luckily we're off on weekdays so we enjoy having routes all to ourselves, pretty much, most of the time.

I wish I could find that happy medium; getting myself to enjoy hard sport to get stronger, and climbing more regularly on my days off. I better get off my lazy ass, eh!? But ski season is coming up; D'Oh! and we're planning on backpacking the Old Mojave Road soon! Double D'Oh, and WooHoo!! : ) And then there's all those non-climbing friends harassing you, saying you're going to die, and are crazy for climbing, and all the household chores, and working full-time, and overtime to distract you from becoming a better, stronger climber. Yeah, yeah, excuses, excuses.

PS, I'll always love climbing the best; I just can't quit you!

Jake D. wrote: sorry to say that trad does not always get you away from crowds..

Weekdays, routes with longer approaches, and/or inclement weather in many areas is a good way to avoid cluster-fuc*s. We have been known to climb in the summer in Red Rock, NV. and it's a ghost town at that time of year, even on weekends! WooHoo! : )

Great photos, especially the last pic of the super strong, solid climber! Kayte??