Assessing Ice Conditions???

Curious what kinds of assessment techniques the ice climbing community uses to assess ice conditions? What clues are you looking for to tell if the ice climbable/safe? Simply by looking at the ice can you reasonably anticipate what the conditions will be like (plastic, brittle, etc...)? Also, simply based on recent weather/temperatures can you accurately predict what the ice conditions will be without actually going and looking?

Coming from a rock climbing background and being familiar with concepts of micro-structure and macro-structure when assessing gear placements, I am curious to see if there is anything similar in ice climbing? Is there some sort of systematic checklist of criteria for "good" ice conditions?

It's not called Cold Fear for nothing.

There are no absolutes in this thing, but it's always steeper than it looks.

It's a gravity defiant frozen avalanche monster waiting for its next meal.

Some days I wish I was Super-Blind so I couldn't see the impending disaster which awaits my mortal soul

anything big, fat & blue - you can hang a tanker truck off of it.

Even the best guesses often end up as just taking the ice tools for a walk...again. Really dynamic temperature differences, either up or down but especially down, don't seem to help much. Pillars, daggers, etc should be avoided on super cold days; they've been known to snap off randomly on really cold days.

Is there a visible sheen from running water on the surface or just below? Is the ice milky white, bluish or more clear near the surface? Is the bottom cauliflowerd? Are there a lot of dinner plates laying around the base? Is it kicked out or untouched, and if so, if it's a popular area then a lot of formage has happened recently.

All these things give you a general idea, but it depends drastically on the actual climb and how micro-local conditions affect it. I've been on ice that was slushy and soaking wet on one part of the climb and impenetrable as concrete two feet farther up. In general, if it's been a cool night, and daytime temps are in the mid 30's, I've had the most fun and found the best conditions. I've mainly climbed in RMNP, at Vail and Wolf Creek Pass, so those are the only places I can speak for.

I was on a 'small' pillar one day when it was not really that cold but as I started to climb it sagged on its base, shifted to one side and snapped the end of my pick off. High in the pucker factor.

Another time a friend was climbing a rather large ice formation in Ontario (Cascade Falls) when the whole thing settled opening a five inch fracture right above his tools. You could feel the vibration of that one coming from the ground.....spooky!

Both of these happened on cold days right after warm spells.......

First off, thanks to everyone that has posted so far. Evan, I've got a few specific questions for you. You mentioned a few different conditions that you may find. Just curious as to what each one tells you about the overall quality of the ice.

Water on the surface? I believe water below is not good (poorly bonded ice to the rock or underlying surface). What does milky white ice mean? Blue is good, right? What about clear? Cauliflowered ice, good or bad? Dinner plates at the base would indicate brittle ice?

It's an interesting transition from rock to ice. It's a similar sport in that you move upwards using rope and some similar technical movements, but in a lot of ways it is a completely different ball game.

Water on the surface obviously means warmer temps and possibly softer ice, although I've been out in near zero degrees with running water, this indicated possibly dangerous fractures and poor bonding down deep, but not necessarily.

Milky white usually means warm and soft, can be unsafe, or just slush on the surface.

Blue means plastic and nice, sometimes.

Clear, along with plates means brittle, or that is was recently.

Cauliflowerd means fast formation (sometimes) and can be sketchy and hard to protect in those sections.

You don't see truly blue ice in Colorado all that often, it's usually whitish with a tinge of blue if it's really nice.

Again, all these things are very GENERAL indicators, ice is super finicky and changes by the minute. It's a very dangerous and unpredictable sport an no one is gonna be able to give you any definites, because there aren't any. Sorry, you just have to go climb and get a feel for it.

The best way to assess ice is at Lake City:

1a. look at ice
1b. get out of car
2a. look at ice again
2b. get clothing adjusted while listening to radio

3a & b. Walk to ice whilst looking (should take about 45 seconds)

4(a&b, again) partner up, rope up, and look at ice

5. go right next to ice, look up, and then bag it

6. go back to car, pull out cooler & lawn chair.

7a,b (& c this time) -- sit on chair, drink beer, let someone else flail, and look at ice, but this time, really assess your position to the guy elvis'ing like a, like a, well like a Mad Dog....

Thanks for all of the assessment beta. As Buff points out, there are many ways to "assess" conditions in a given area. I appreciate the posts. It's some good info to get started on. Any others wanting to chim in, I'm all ears.

When I was first starting out ice climbing, I used to ask people this question. They would tell me stuff like "it takes experience, blah, blah, blah". Eventually I gained the experience and figured out that they said that stuff because there is no way to tell, and they didn't want to sound stupid.

Been climbing ice since "73 (& I still miss tube picks).
Best conditions are solid, but plastic: below freezing overnight, 20s to 30s when climbing.
Have had nasty close calls due to major temp shifts-pillars falling off when temp hit 25 after a week of sub-zero.
Too cold & you get brittle & dinnerplating, too warm & you get slushy-both doable but not necessarily fun.
Unless a small pillar or thin, smack the base in a few places; that'll tell you something about the first 15-20 feet, maybe the whole climb.
Running water underneath is not good, but may be very local-go around if possible.
Like rock, mileage counts.
"Wisdom is the result of experience, and experience is the result of doing foolish things." Attributed to Galen Rowell, describing a F.A. big wall solo. Sounds like ice-climbing to me.

As has been well said here, there's really no substitute for mileage and experience. One reason why, in some respects, the Ice Park(s) are dangerous - people do some TR-ing, a couple of leads, then decide they know all about ice climbing/conditions and head into the backcountry. Not the same thing at all, for a number of reasons. I'm frankly surprised we haven't been seeing a noticeable increase in accidents.

Will Gadd has some general guidelines in his book on ice and mixed climbing - especially being wary of daggers and pillars during rapid cold snaps, but otherwise, it just takes time.

I'm shiverin just thinkin.

Hey, speaking of dangerous parks, I see Lake City is a go.

Since Color and Formations have been covered, I usually assess ice while climbing by sound of my picks hitting the ice...

Sinker ice usually sounds dense and with a thud.

Brittle ice well sounds brittle...

Tits McGee wrote:Sinker ice usually sounds dense and with a thud.

sucha great sound ~ Buff is LC really a go right now..?

The best advice I can give is to go out there in all conditions with a notebook and play on the ice.

Hunches and intuition play as large a role in determining what comes in and what doesn't and/or how well as any more tangible advice I could offer. Go out in sub-zero, swing that pick, make notes.......go home. Go back to same local but this time with a heavier pack, warmer/different temps, swing that pick, make those notes, ..........go home, repeat until you gain some sort of insight into what might happen next.........then post on mtnprjt so we all rush out and claim your FA!

Hook up with a more experienced and enthusisatic ice climber and discover his/her secrets.

looks like the website is sayin so -- Surprised we haven't heard from PKelley

jack roberts wrote:Hook up with a more experienced and enthusisatic ice climber and discover his/her secrets.

someone like Jack..!!!!!!!

maybe we should send PK a littl' note..? (requesting photos of course) I wonder how much snow LC got, Wolf was shut down for awhile.. oops, looks like perhaps another storm headed out this weekend..

ROC sorry for the drift, I got a bit excited remembering that sound. So far I've only been on plastic ice lately

on topic -coming from rock-to-ice as well, I find *ice* conditions x-tremely challenging cause it's always changin, sometimes throughout the day. Quite different from rock which (usually & hopefully) remains constant

Any suggestions of a place nearish Boulder for a first timer. TR of course so I don't die trying to figure how the hell an ice screw works.

Go to clear creek - and make sure you knock down all of the ice so that those of us who like to lead ice can't climb it.