Age, grade, and relativity

Enzo Oddo, another 14 year old "crusher" pulverizing the standards. How many climbers are there who have trained like Wolfgang Gullich for more years than Enzo Oddo has been on planet earth but still cannot break into 5.14c? Isn't it about time that we recognized that climbing grades are relative to a host of variables, with age being only one of these. Ask Sharma or Lindner how many years it has been since they jumped two number grades in about as much time. The relativistic run to the cutting edge by the super-young represents a host of physiological parameters that even the most elite of the elite, at twice Enzo's age, will not be able to overcome. I am much more inspired by what Sharma and Caldwell can do with their adult bodies and their persistence and talent. So how do we deal super-hard ascents by the super-young? While these feats are impressive, they fall into a different catagory than the accomplishments of the vast bulk of climbers from 20 years old to DOA.

There are old people who climb hard .14 too, and some people, like myself, who simply aren't physically made for super burly routes. My tendons and bones just can't handle hanging upside down from mono pads, and that's okay. That kid's gonna be climbing .15 when he's in his 20's, or maybe sooner, and good for him, he's one of the rare talents who can do that. If people were focused on routes that hard and climbing was as popular 30 years ago as it is today, there would be plenty of stories about kids crankin down that hard, but the sport is at that point where it's breaking through to the next ridiculously hard level, that's just where it's at. The kids always push the physical boundaries, and he'll tear a few tendons down the road, lose his sense of invincibility, and continue to climb stupidly hard but maybe a little smarter when he gets older. There's no "master class" division in climbing, well, there is, but physiology says the young ones have the advantage in the strength to weight ratio. Not sure what I'm trying to prove, I guess that his accomplishments are just as valid as anyone's, and he'll likely continue to do so for decades to come. You can't judge and say people older than him have done more, they have, they're older, he'll be one of them in 15 years, jumping the gun a little there.

The solution to that is easy: invoke the bar-fight qualifier. If they would be totally worthless in a bar-fight; then they shall be ignored.
We could also decree that one's balls must have dropped.
Or that one has quaffed an entire liter of hard alcohol.
Maybe shave more than once a month.
I would add getting laid more than once a year, but we all know that eliminates 85% of the MP crowd.

I applaud any remarkable climbing accomplishment.

I disagree with your thinking. I think that grades should be constant in terms of only grading difficulty.

Otherwise, following your line of reasoning, my 5.8 lead could be a 5.12 for a fat, old, smoker. His body will never be able to overcome some limitations that I don't have.

It is true that I feel a large body of work and long resume of difficult ticks holds more credibility than a flash in the pan hard send. But, Oddo is amazing, none the less. He could fade away or he could set the bar higher than we can imagine. He just needs time.

I'm not going to shit on him for being young and I don't think your interpretation is paticularily fair to his hard work. He didn't just walk up to a rock after going to chuck-e-cheeses' one day and send 14c.

Evan

Seems to me that your point is equally valid for just about any other athletic accomplishment. Different body types have intrinsic advantages, and in some sports, the most effective body type is more similar to that of a child than to adult. Case in point: women's (that is, girls) gymnastics. Climbing and gymnastics are exceptions to most sports that favor size and absolute strength, but the basic point that athletic performance depends heavily (mostly) on basic physical characteristics is the same.

We can all admire those who accomplish the most with less physical gifts, but at the end of the day, who really cares about the performance of anyone except the the best? We sort of make an exception for women's sports, but the popularity of women's sports seems suspiciously linked to the physical attractiveness of the participants. (Not to take away for the incredible accomplishments of women athletes, including climbers.)

Life is relative, years ago people spent more time climbing than acquiring gear and talking in forums about climbing. Now climbing is pretty mainstream so it's going to bring in "the naturals" and sometimes, no matter how much will, determination and desire you have, a pocket full of "natural" will put a whoopin to 40 years of experience. Though it's a balance of both that will make somebody great at something as opposed to just being able to do it.

I'm built well for climbing though not ideal, I climb, I like it but the reality is I only fight myself and my internal goals. I wanna build some skill with sport climbing until I'm comfortably leading trad at about 5.9s. I wanna get to the top of Devil's Tower and I'd like to bolt a route. Those are my goals, that and to enjoy as much of the outdoors as I can.

I love seeing people climb well, I went out with Calib Anderson (on MP) for his first climbing less than 3 months ago. Last week I saw him lead a multi-pitch 5.11, the kid has serious talent beyond where I even care to be. Truth be told, I see no difference between a 5.6 and a 5.15, I have no interest to try and increase one grade at a time until I'm eventually climbing 3 grades less than somebody that has that natural talent.

I guess however we all climb for difference reasons, I do it for the competition internally and would gain nothing from climbing a 5.15 that I couldn't get from a 5.9.

Adam Block wrote:Life is relative, years ago people spent more time climbing than acquiring gear and talking in forums about climbing. Now climbing is pretty mainstream so it's going to bring in "the naturals" and sometimes, no matter how much will, determination and desire you have, a pocket full of "natural" will put a whoopin to 40 years of experience. Though it's a balance of both that will make somebody great at something as opposed to just being able to do it. I'm built well for climbing though not ideal, I climb, I like it but the reality is I only fight myself and my internal goals. I wanna build some skill with sport climbing until I'm comfortably leading trad at about 5.9s. I wanna get to the top of Devil's Tower and I'd like to bolt a route. Those are my goals, that and to enjoy as much of the outdoors as I can. I love seeing people climb well, I went out with Calib Anderson (on MP) for his first climbing less than 3 months ago. Last week I saw him lead a multi-pitch 5.11, the kid has serious talent beyond where I even care to be. Truth be told, I see no difference between a 5.6 and a 5.15, I have no interest to try and increase one grade at a time until I'm eventually climbing 3 grades less than somebody that has that natural talent. I guess however we all climb for difference reasons, I do it for the competition internally and would gain nothing from climbing a 5.15 that I couldn't get from a 5.9.

Very well said, I do like to push myself it is not so I can be the best climber round its so I can challenge myself. I think its cool when others climb incredible hard routes, I like to see the progression of the sport and knowing how hard .11 is for me seeing someone seemingly effortlessly send hard .14 or .15 its impressive.

So to Enzo Oddo great job, keep sending but donr forget why you started climbing, have fun. I dont care why you send the hard routes you do, whether it be natural talent, fearlessness because you are to young to be fearful, or because you train like crazy, just have fun doing it, and good work.

I think as a climbing community we need to stop looking down on other accomplishments for lame reason, "its a sport climb", or "he is too young", or whatever the reason you justify putting down someone elses accomplishment, dont do it, IMHO

My point, laid out coursely, is basically that such accomplishments are far more owed to youth than to discipline, and as such, is of zero interest to me. I'm all about what can be achieved through sacrifice, discipline, busting ass, etc. I expect these numbers from the children who are so inclined and gifted, but I will reserve any reverence for their accomplishments until what they do as a fully matured adult.

I'm not bagging on the kid, Evan; I just don't give a shit.

Mike Lane wrote:The solution to that is easy: invoke the bar-fight qualifier. If they would be totally worthless in a bar-fight; then they shall be ignored.

In an interview a few years ago someone asked Daniel Woods if he'd been in a fight. He stated that he's run away from people a few times, and that he'd only been in a fight if getting beat up counts.
So I guess you have the answer there, Mike. (snicker).
I was never a very good climber. I never had the gift of talent, the discipline, or the body for it. But oh well.
There are only a few things that people compete at, but 6 billion people who can compete. Your odds are as much as billions to one at being the best at anything... so I accept being in the middle of the pool at most stuff and I'm happy with that.

Mike Lane wrote:The solution to that is easy: invoke the bar-fight qualifier. If they would be totally worthless in a bar-fight; then they shall be ignored. We could also decree that one's balls must have dropped. Or that one has quaffed an entire liter of hard alcohol. Maybe shave more than once a month. I would add getting laid more than once a year, but we all know that eliminates 85% of the MP crowd.

ha ha! I Agree!!!

Mike Lane wrote: I'm not bagging on the kid, Evan; I just don't give a shit.

You obviously care enough to start a discussion about it. I understand what your saying and didn't really take your comments in a negative light, but I'll reiterate, in 20 or 30 years the kid will be one of those people who has put in tons of effort and sacrifice, right now he just happens to be really really good at something, good for him

It is inescapable that the cutting edge of ratings will eventually reside with the young, and that the current hardest "route" in the world will always be a severely overhanging thing on ever smaller holds. The only thing that will change will be the holds just getting smaller and smaller. It is an entropic process, progress will eventually slow to a permanent standstill which will only crack with the arrival of a literal mutant.

Mike Lane wrote:It is inescapable that the cutting edge of ratings will eventually reside with the young, and that the current hardest "route" in the world will always be a severely overhanging thing on ever smaller holds. The only thing that will change will be the holds just getting smaller and smaller. It is an entropic process, progress will eventually slow to a permanent standstill which will only crack with the arrival of a literal mutant.

Isn't that the basis of progression? People never thought anyone would hit more home runs than Babe Ruth, but that got broken multiple times now?

And I agree the progression will always come from younger climbers, that's just how human nature is and every other sport (i.e. Lebron James in the NBA). So I don't see why it matters to you that nature is staying true to itself... And if you really don't care what he climbs don't click on the article, its pretty simple.

matthewWallace wrote:And I agree the progression will always come from younger climbers, that's just how human nature is and every other sport (i.e. Lebron James in the NBA).

For comparison, look at the history of "womans" gymnastic competition.

They're be folks at the extreme end of the bell curve of human existance in all sports. The more the general population gets exposed to different sports, the more that cream will rise to the top.

My point was not to disparage or undermine what the super-young have done, but to recognize that a simple application of a grade to a route leaves us comparing apple to oranges. The one-arm champ in the world may be the new born baby. So if he can hang on with one hand while daddy falls off, what exactly have you compared? How difficult is a 5.14 move for a 100lb body with small digits compared to 160lb body with larger digits? It's the nature of the grading itself that is under question, not the accomplishment of the climber.

Mike Lane wrote:.... progress will eventually slow to a permanent standstill which will only crack with the arrival of a literal mutant.

now that's what i'm waiting for. to see some chap on the cover of R&I with a prehensile tail or gecko hairs on his finger pads.

Igor, get me my lab coat.

This conversation got me thinking about how frustrating it must be for the participants in other sports.
For example, think of the child who devotes his life to football with the intention of becoming a great lineman, but later discovers that his genetics will never let him grow much beyond one hundred pounds and a height of five feet. His chances are as slim as that of a two hundred pound ballerina or jockey.
So many sports are geared for steroid enhanced muscle mass and genetically predetermined tall height.
I fondly recall back in grade school two kids who represented both extremes of body type.
Chuck was the mesomorph kid who was taller than, and outweighed, everyone else.
He was always selected first when captains were picking a team.
Jim was the ectomorph. Since he was short and sleight of build he was always picked last for games.
Then came that one day each year where Jim shined. Pullup day!
Chuck couldn't do one pullup, while Jim could do a hundred.
As a relatively large climber at 6'2" and 200 lbs, I sometimes feel like Chuck on pullup day. To put it into context as described by Mike Lane in a post above, I have always been better suited for a bar fight than a 5.14, but that has never stopped me from enjoying the wonderful world of climbing.
We climbers are very fortunate when we consider how we are welcome to practice our sport in the world class arenas.
Many professional musicians will never have the opportunity to play Carnegie Hall.
Only a very few ball players will play in Madison Square Gardens or Yankee Stadium.
As a climber, no one will be there to restrict my access to climb on El Capitan, The Grand Teton or Everest, except myself.
Every weekend I get to hang out in beautiful natural areas, surrounded by rocks and trees, with extraordinary scenery and fresh air.
I spend these times challenging myself against stone in the company of good friends, not rivals.
One need not be frustrated when comparing number grades of the routes we too tall, too heavy, too old, negative ape indexed, injured, mortgaged, parenting, weekend warriors can pull off, to the grades that the young genetically gifted do with ease.
All you have to do is remember all of the great adventures you've had with precious friends and the frustration will dissolve into euphoria.

Bravo, Tom.

Tom, you just summed up so much in such a short space.

Perhaps, as in other endurance sports, climbing routes should have some notion of "age class" in regards to their ratings and significance.

While admittedly sometimes difficult to quantify, age and experience can be important considerations when judging the relative performance, expertice, and effort an individual displays.

ADD: +1 for Tom above.

Richard M. Wright wrote:but to recognize that a simple application of a grade to a route leaves us comparing apple to oranges.

The route grade is comparing the routes physical difficutly to other climbs, not the climber or individual send.

I guess how you feel about this discussion depends to some degree on your outlook on grades, how you feel accomlished in your own climbing, and the type of attention you feel should be given for climbing accomplishments.

I see grades as a rough commentary on the physical difficulty of a climb and its appropriateness for me to lead.

I feel accomplished when I get better.

I feel that attention should be given for, well, attention getting feats. As a community, we decide what is noteworthy by taking note. Oddo's send has captured attention, which means its deserved of the attention.

Cheers,
Evan