Climbing at high Altitude with Oxygen...should climber get summit certificate with asterisk?

Ryan Williams wrote: BTW, if I buy used ropes that stopped working at a certain height and one of my clients dies because of it, I will probably be charged with manslaughter also. Don't for one second feel bad for those guides. They brought it all on themselves and it started way before they bought the bad tanks.

As fas as the manslaughter story goes, the judge threw the trial out and non of the guides were found guilty. The ruling was that climbing is inherently dangerous and that they were participating in a risky activity.

If you are on oxygen, it is because you are having trouble breathing... if you are having trouble breathing...the environment is not right for you and you need to descend, not keep on going up.

If we are going to continue to make the argument that oxygen is like a rope then we must include water in that too.

People can climb mountains or cliffs without ropes, i'de like to see someone climb without breathing oxygen or drinking any water.

My $0.02:

Ethic #1: Don't lie about your ascent. If you used O2, or a guide, or a pogo-stick, just be honest about it. There's no shame in saying "I climbed _____ route, but I had to hang on a piece of pro."

Ethic #2: Clean up your mess/don't ruin the mountains. "We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children."

This seems like a lot of spray by people who haven't spent time at high altitude, and as I am also in that category, I'll end my comments now.

It's not the peaks upon which we stand, but the stories we bring back.

The real problem with using O2 is that we are actually running out of it and it is quite foolish to waste such a finite resource on mountain ascents. The government has been very effective of hiding this looming crisis. Plans for rationing are already in place; which days you can breathe will be determined by the last 2 digits of your address. That is the real impetus of relegating O2 for emergencies only.

Chris Drover wrote:My $0.02: Ethic #1: Don't lie about your ascent. If you used O2, or a guide, or a pogo-stick, just be honest about it. There's no shame in saying "I climbed _____ route, but I had to hang on a piece of pro." Ethic #2: Clean up your mess/don't ruin the mountains. "We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children." This seems like a lot of spray by people who haven't spent time at high altitude, and as I am also in that category, I'll end my comments now. It's not the peaks upon which we stand, but the stories we bring back.

Well said Chris, I couldn't agree with you more!

I am pretty sure that whether or not you can function w/out O2 for long once you are in the death zone -which by definition means that you are too high for human survival without O2- depends solely on physiological predispositions and not necessarily training or cojones. So your argument that if you need O2 you don't belong there has a component of genetic favoritism similar to the Ubermench concept in Mien Kampf. And I find this sort of physiological elitism repugnant, especially when the opinion is formed not from being there but solely from reading.

Aimee Bates wrote: I will start by saying that I get the feeling that your EMT-B training has skewed your view

bingo. taking the urban med tech and applying this protocol to the mountain environment can be a square peg. Os are used all the time for maintaining saturation, else an emergency would surely develop.

Use O2 or don't use it, most people don't care anyway as long as you can climb within control of your talent level. Just don't leave a bunch of crap on the mountain; hence the name Euro-trash.

Is it fair to say SCUBA is assisted swimming and yet no-one freaks out about that??

pogo stick -- if anything that should be a bonus certificate

Some unsolicited advice: read less and climb more!

West Hartford, eh? Insurance capital of the world and all that. But just north of you there are many ways to suffer nobly.

Climb Camel's Hump this Thanksgiving and sleep on top. Plan a winter traverse of the Presidential Range, or at least bag Mt. Washington, or Adams or any number of them white mountains in the Granite state. If you still have all your fingers and toes and the hunger, go get on Mt. Kahtadin in Maine. Then hie thee to Vermont for some kick ass blaster ice climbing all season. The northeast is having some heavy weather right now so things should be fine. This summer you can go to Ecuador or Peru and get a taste of life around 20K ft.

Beached Nuts wrote: Where did I say I was forcing my style onto you?

No you didn't say that directly, but by saying that it was more of an accomplishment to free moon light in a day instead of aiding it in 2, instead of saying it was better style, I took that as having a style pushed on me.

BrianH wrote:Some unsolicited advice: read less and climb more! West Hartford, eh? Insurance capital of the world and all that. But just north of you there are many ways to suffer nobly. Climb Camel's Hump this Thanksgiving and sleep on top. Plan a winter traverse of the Presidential Range, or at least bag Mt. Washington, or Adams or any number of them white mountains in the Granite state. If you still have all your fingers and toes and the hunger, go get on Mt. Kahtadin in Maine. Then hie thee to Vermont for some kick ass blaster ice climbing all season. The northeast is having some heavy weather right now so things should be fine. This summer you can go to Ecuador or Peru and get a taste of life around 20K ft.

Thanks for the advice...I am trying to plan a trip to Mount Washington this winter. Two years ago my dad and I paid a guide for an overnight on there. It was one of the most amazing experiences I had. It downpoured all night, I woke up sweating with moisture all along the inside of the tent. We got up at 5am, starting hiking up the Lions Head in the pouring rain, made it above treeline and turned around. We Were aboslutely soaked from the inside out, backpack and all. That was where it began.

I am sorry if this thread came off as me trolling. I apologize for that and never intended it to be that way. I was very moved by the book I had read along with other stories I have heard and wanted to see others opinion.

matt snider wrote: I believe this to be wrong. Building your ego by the style you climb with is what this sounds like. The people I surround myself with when asked if we've done a route we try to be as humble as possible. Why would any one push there style onto anyone else, or try to sound as if there accomplishment is any better. I would say that their style was more impressive, but the final outcome was the same right. Basically what I am saying is that certain styles are more impressive than others, but it is the same accomplishment. How many ways are there to skin a cat?? I the end the cat is skinless.

Matt,

It seems you're arguing the semantics of what the word "accomplishment" means. Driving from LA to NY is the same "accomplishment" as riding your bike between the two, since you end up at the same point? The vast majority of rationale people would say that they are not the same "accomplishment".

Dogging or aiding up a route is not the same accomplishment as freeing it. Jugging fixed lines is not the same as leading. In the sport of climbing, style is of critical importance. Unfortuantely for whatever reason, many "climbers" enter the sport without any understanding of its history or ethos. Fortunately there are people like John who are willing to educate the naive, if they are willing to listen. Obviously most are not.

Monomaniac wrote:Three cheers for brain damage! Totally worth it.

hey mono what summit is that?

Christian wrote:"Similar effects were seen on Aconcagua. Most of the eight amateur climbers never got above 21,000 feet, and one reached only 18,000 feet. Still, none of the scans came back normal. Four of the climbers suffered multiple subcortical lesions, seven had widespread enlargement of their VR spaces, and all showed signs of cortical atrophy—even though half of the team displayed either no symptoms of mountain sickness or mild ones during the climb." Haha, that explains so many things..Well not really, but I'll keep it as a handy excuse :-)

yeah i always knew you weren't quite right in the head.

Monomaniac wrote: Matt, It seems you're arguing the semantics of what the word "accomplishment" means. Driving from LA to NY is the same "accomplishment" as riding your bike between the two, since you end up at the same point? The vast majority of rationale people would say that they are not the same "accomplishment". Dogging or aiding up a route is not the same accomplishment as freeing it. Jugging fixed lines is not the same as leading. In the sport of climbing, style is of critical importance. Unfortuantely for whatever reason, many "climbers" enter the sport without any understanding of its history or ethos. Fortunately there are people like John who are willing to educate the naive, if they are willing to listen. Obviously most are not.

I hope your not refering to me as naive, I have probally read more climbing history books than 90% of the people on here. Don't be a jerk. Definition of accomplishment. 1. The act of accomplishing or the state of being accomplished; completion.
2. Something completed successfully; an achievement.
3. An acquired skill or expertise.4. Social poise and grace. I geuss I am looking at the end conclusion rather than the means. To me the end conclusion is the accomplishment, and everything in between is style( the transition in style over the years is an accomplishment), which being a 95% trad climber, who choses to fall before hang dogging, style is important to me. Warren Hardings 1st accent of the nose was a major accomplishment. Lynn hills first free accent in a day of the nose major accomplishment. Two major accomplishments two major differences in style. Yes in the climbing world me aiding the nose in 3 days (which isn't my style) in 2009 won't make the front page of Alpinist, but an accomplishment none the less. As important or huge as Hardings, or Hills NO. I am not trying to argue that. I am saying that the people who spend three days aiding should not have a asterick next to there name.

matt snider wrote: I am saying that the people who spend three days aiding should not have a asterisk next to there name.

I don't think anyone actually said that. but the ascent does need to be distinguished, as an aid ascent versus a free ascent there is a major difference, in difficulty in most cases, both rad in their own right but majorly different. and its worth noting that difference. IMHO.

matthewWallace wrote: I don't think anyone actually said that. but the ascent does need to be distinguished, as an aid ascent versus a free ascent there is a major difference, in difficulty in most cases, both rad in their own right but majorly different. and its worth noting that difference. IMHO.

So the norm on the nose is a lot of free climbing and some aid. I think that 99.9% of people who climb it aid a little bit. So I am trying to say is Asterisk the free accenst. A much better style , and different accomplishment. I agree they should be distinguished, just as a FA and FFA.

i agree asterisk what is not the norm i will agree with that whole heartedly.

matt snider wrote: certain styles are more impressive than others, but it is the same accomplishment.

matt snider wrote:much better style, and different accomplishment

I agree Matt, "naive" is probably not the right word! (just kidding around, easy there!)

I'm confident that we are pretty much in agreement but we choose different words (and perhaps definitions) to express our view, which is that, the style in which a route is climbed is essential to judging the merit of the ascent relative to other ascents of the same route.

Monomaniac wrote: I agree Matt, "naive" is probably not the right word! (just kidding around, easy there!) I'm confident that we are pretty much in agreement but we choose different words (and perhaps definitions) to express our view, which is that, the style in which a route is climbed is essential to judging the merit of the ascent relative to other ascents of the same route.

Dually noted. I am a sarcastic person, and I loose my voice inflections, and body language on this written forum. I don't think your a jerk.

Cool Matt! I don;t think you're naive. Are we supposed to sing Kuhmbaya now?

matthewWallace wrote: hey mono what summit is that?

Monomaniac wrote:Cool Matt! I don;t think you're naive. Are we supposed to sing Kuhmbaya now?

The beauty of a written form. I can become educated through a bunch of different people's opinions and change my mind on things.