"Across from Bihedral" bolt-a-thon

Hank Caylor wrote: For real, you think Everest is "not considered all that difficult"? I haven't been there, but would love to hear your TR.

Hank,

you only have to look at the Everest climbing statistics to see that the difficulty of the mountain has diminished now that there are fixed ropes from bottom to top and so many climbers on the mountain that if anybody gets into trouble (1996 being a notable exception) there is enough manpower, tents, oxygen, supplies, etc. from all the expeditions to offer necessary assistance. Greg Child wrote a very informative piece about this a few years back.

You still have to put one foot in front of the other and have the willpower to climb to 29,000 feet, so, yes, that makes it difficult.
But, the statistics don't lie and more and more people are reaching the summit every year.

Bruce

Tonya Clement wrote: Ben reminds us about the retrobolting....it has recently come to my attention that several of the obvious cracks at Cascade Crag were climbed in the early 70's and again in the 90's by some of our best local climbers. These guys have visited Cascade and have no issues.

One of the main complainants here is the guy who's lines got retrobolted. That's an issue and he's really not pleased, with the in mind, I think that either I misunderstand you r point, or you are still missing something. One or the other.

Tonya Clement wrote:Lastly I do understand that on the extreme end...those of us that are lovers of trad, and I am one of them, fear the preservation of the great lines and do not want to see them gone or off limits.

For me it's more simple. I don't agree 100% with Bruce, though I se his point. I actually have no problem with a fixed line up everest... I just don't think we need to go fixing lines up all the routes to make the all accessible. Cascade could have had a dozen new climbs without any retrobolts and we wouldn't be having this conversation. Not every route needs to be the 'everyman's route.'

Tonya Clement wrote:I promise not to chime in again on this subject. I still cannot wait to climb and am hoping for sunshine tomorrow.

I don;'t see a problem either way. YOu've got a right to your opinion and to participate in a discussion. It brings something to the table.

Tony B wrote: One of the main complainants here is the guy who's lines got retrobolted. That's an issue and he's really not pleased, with the in mind, I think that either I misunderstand you r point, or you are still missing something. One or the other.

Tony-

I've learned that there has been activity at this crag prior to Leo's ascents, possibly on multiple occasions and possibly as far back as the '70s by a notable local. Don't know what lines were done or if they were the same ones that Leo did, but these folks have all apparently let the bolters know that they don't mind the bolts going in. I think that's what Tonya is referring to.

BTW, we checked this place out today. Had it to ourselves most of the day. I've been to better sport crags, I've been to much worse. Some of the bolt placements were comical (i.e., their proximity to one another and where some of them were placed relative to the ground -- not very far), but we had fun, the climbing was pretty decent, and I'll probably go back at least once to try some of the lines we missed. For whatever that's worth.

The "Rights of Passage" in climbing is obviously a thing of the past. Sport routes were initially the evolution of free climbing at the top end of its spectrum. Some of us who excelled in repeating what was there, at times risking life and limb, reached a point where most, established, naturally protected routes had been achieved. What remained was super desperate, marginally , naturally protected routes at the upper end of 5.12 and into 5.13. When resorting to bolting, we, in a sense thought to have earned the right to break from the so called tradition in a quest to push the limits of what was possible, in a physical sense, on the rock. I waited a while before I broke out the power drill, resorting to 5.13x leads and soloing 5.12, whatever. I found that once you move into the convenience of the power drill, (for my first several sport routes were hand drilled), it becomes almost to convenient and somewhat addictive, hence one must constantly keep themselves in check and reflect on this type of endeavor. Hard to articulate in a few words.

Well, if I were older I could say I climbed there in the 1950's and that I did care, but that's only not credible due to my age and the location where I was raised. One 'older climber' that in initially told Leo he'd climbed there has since admitted that he actually has not. This may or may not be the same one that you all are speaking of.
If someone is claiming a prior FA and says that's good enough for excusing the retro-bolts, they need to come out of the closet.

Tony B wrote:One older climber that initially told Leo he'd climbed there has since admitted that he actually has not. This may or may not be the same one that you all are speaking of. If someone is claiming a prior FA and says that's good enough for bolts, they need to come out of the closet.

Wow, this has gotten ridiculous. Have climbing ethics gotten so subjective/malleable that people people are lying about FA's to justify retrobolting? WTF?

I have to take issue with the "climbing is only about fun" crowd. This could derail the whole thread, but here goes. Climbing is fun. If it wasn't, most of us wouldn't do it. But if it was just fun, I probably would have moved on long ago. Numerous threads are full of the many things you can get from climbing, so I won't go into it here. Suffice it to say that toproping is fun and can lead to a feeling of accomplishment when you pull some hard moves without falling. But if you've never experienced the sensation of pulling those moves even a few feet above a bolt or gear, then you are missing out. This can be on a 5.8 or a 5.13, what ever is challenging for you. I'm glad people have fun climbing routes at Cascade Creek and the Sport Park. I occasionally enjoy sport climbing as well, although these crags are not the type I head to.

But we don't exist in a vacuum. Land managers are aware of how the climbing community behaves on their land. I know one climber was warned (or possibly ticketed) about building trails to new crags in Boulder Canyon, and I've heard that others have been warned about the extensive bolting. We've been lucky that the Forest Service hasn't clamped down in Boulder Canyon the way Eldo SP and OSMP did. Does that mean they never will? No, it doesn't. It seems that land managers are willing to accomodate sport climbing, but they eventually decide enough is enough.

In the past, the trend of climbing ethics showed respect for the resource (the rock) by trying to improve on the style of ascent, thus minimizing impact. Pins were replaced by clean gear, and bolt counts were minimized. Bolts were not placed by protectable cracks. Sport climbing challenged this trend, and many resisted it for this reason (among others).

Some of the new routes are reversing the trend. The entire crag is scoured clean. Bolts are placed so closely that often you aren't really leading, you just have a moving top-rope. Cracks are bolted. And now I've started seeing these industrial tow-hooks at anchors. Apparently the 48 seconds it takes to thread the rings is too much for the outdoor gym crowd. What's next--are we going to start putting in those auto-belay things they have in the gym? Don't laugh--the logic that permits Tonnere Tower and Cascade Creek would justify this as well. It would allow more people to safely have fun at the crag.

I'm glad people are having fun at the crags. I am too. I have fun sport-climbing and trad climbing. But let's not pretend that we can do whatever we want on public lands. The climbing community works very hard to show land managers that were are responsible caretakers of the places we go. Let's not waste that by creating outdoor gyms. If you need bolts so close that you are basically on TR the whole time, why not just set a toprope. It is easy to walk to the top of the crag at Cascade Creek and the Sport Park. Yeah, it's less convenient. But not grid bolting an entire wall to permit this sort of climbing certainly shows respect for the environment and might keep the land managers from shutting us down.

-Rich

RBF wrote:I suggest the demeaning wankers with LACKING information about the REAL HISTORY regarding this crag and this thread, they should get a life, go climb or even better... Those wankers people could contribute something useful for the climbing community. They could go out there and put-up a new FA of their own.

Easy there. This has been one of the most mellow and constructive 4 page threads I've ever seen on MP. But your post ramps it up while supposedly taking issue with all the "demeaning wankers".

It seems that the "real history" of this crag is a little murky, so let's hold off on name calling for now.

Your suggestion that the wankers who have issue with this crag could contribute something useful to the climbing community shows how uninformed you are. Many of the people on both sides of this issue have contributed much to the community via first ascents, trail days and crag clean-ups, rescue work, fixed hardware maintenance, etc.

putting up new easy to mid-range bolted routes - AWESOME!
paying for the hardware yourself - AWESOME!
spreading out the crowds, especially in the 5.9-5.10 range - AWESOME!
clearing out loose rock - AWESOME!!!
thanks for the hard work. seriously, it is VERY appreciated IMHO. I know route development is a lot of work.

bolting directly next to cracks - LAME!
bolting existing routes - LAME!
scraping moss and lichen off the wall - LAME!
unnecessary anchors all over the wall - LAME! (see Tonnere Tower for a preview to this crag)

One of these developers already has a $1,000 fine for destroying vegetation on Tonnere Tower, or so I've heard. Aggressive cleaning is illegal. If enough people climb the areas that need to be cleaned will get cleaned simply through use.

Most climbers are not going to be upset that you are bolting some new routes as long as you respect the plants that were there, the routes that were there, the cracks, and the general "ethics" of climbing. Most climbers are not asking for you to have Eldo style X rated routes, but just to develop with some general common sense.

Also don't give me the no one wants to bring a rack up there. If there is decent pro why shouldn't someone bring gear? Most BOCAN routes only need a minimal rack to start with. If you left a few trad routes I'm sure you would still have PLENTY of sporty routes to bolt. And what the hell is wrong with some mixed routes? Plus you are really sticking to trad climbers bolting cracks. If you are so for having a lot of people enjoying this new crag then give everybody something. Put some anchors at the top of some pure trad or mixed routes. That would be quality crag development.

It is as if you are asking for this criticism developing a new crag in this manner. Tonnere Tower was no different. I think you could defuse the criticism of new crag development if you adhered to a few simple rules:

Don't bolt cracks.
Don't weed-wack an entire cliff on public land.
Don't bolt existing FA's.
Place bolts in a reasonable fashion, obviously this is subject to debate. However, it seems that lines should be independent so that you can't clip one route from another and that while remaining "safe" there should be enough distance that you, at a minimum, can't clip one bolt while clipping another below you. Unless it is perhaps at a crux location that you know everyone is going to fall at or have rope drag issues on- such as a roof.

These seem to be relatively accepted "rules" of new development by most all climbers. You probably satisfy 90% of the climbers out there. And don't throw out the everyone loves the new routes so that makes it ok. You'd probably have more admirers of the crag AND wouldn't have threads like this to deal with if you avoided these issues from the beginning.

This is PUBLIC land, so expect some public comments when you develop in this manner. There was a lot of criticism of Tonnere and the routes after the criticism seemed much more in line with the generally accepted idea of climbing "ethics." Now here we go again. I don't get it.

It should be said that if the FA's weren't really there then that is obviously not an issue.

Having said all of that...still just some bolts on a wall so no hard feelings here.

Tonya Clement wrote:I have just a couple more thoughts and inputs When you say, "It cheapens the accomplishment and that is why climbing Everest, by one of the trade routes, isn't considered that big of a deal any more." I would come back and ask: It cheapens it for who? For the person who already did it? Is the mountain only there for the elite and highly skilled climber? I would simply toss out there, that the person who jugs the line has an even deeper appreciation for the Websters, Shiptons and Ankers of the world (the people that did it the hard way.

I am one of the less skilled individuals that does NOT want the experience to be cheapened...what kind of goals can you set when the bar is brought down to you?

Imagine if the college degree you worked so hard to get, was just given away to everyone just because they showed up to class. Would you feel that your degree has been cheapened, and if so does that make you an elititst? How bout if everyone that tried out for a team made first string? If everything is just handed away what's the point of all this training? I know that there's a huge difference between Evererst and the Bihedral, but as a society we seemed to have taken on this general attitude. Sure I'll climb there, and yeah who doesn't like a supersafe climb, but there's no need to make it the status quo IMHO.

I find the whole viewpoint rather shortsighted that climbing is all about fun and so long as you are having fun we can throw a sense of respect for both nature and the history of climbing out of the window. Yes we climb because it is fun but it is fun because we are exploring and seeking out adventure. And not only are we exploring the natural environment, both on the rock and on the approach to the rock, but we are exploring out own personal limits, both physical and mental. Climbing is about having fun but it is also about fear - scaring the shit out of yourself and learning how to deal with it. Some of my "funnest" days of climbing have been those days where I was scared shitless, crying out for my mommy, and succeeding and pushing through or even dare I say bailing off to reevaluate and come back to climb another day.

I'm sure many people will disagree but if you are ONLY climbing for the fun of it or because it is some quick after work workout then go climb at the gym or as has been mentioned set up a toprope somewhere. Maybe even go clip some bolts at a sport crag but be real about why and how you are trying to challenge yourself. And please don't incessantly put bolts into every rock that you might lay your eyes on. Gym climbing and toproping is as FUN and relaxing as it can possibly be while still challenging yourself physically. If you want to step it up and start challenging yourself mentally, climbing over bolted routes is not the path to take. It's all about taking baby steps. If your first lead is a 5.4 or 5.5 you will not need the bolts to be every four or five feet to feel comfortable. Just because you have worked up to climbing 5.11 at the gym doesn't mean your first lead outdoors needs to be 5.11.

Additionally as a community that should act as defacto stewards of natural environment please don't continue to devegetate crags and put in bolts with reckless abandon. If you like putting up routes that challenge people go be a route setter at a gym. If you want to have a lasting impact on the climbing community take part in or even organize crag clean ups or trail maintenance days. I am not against bolting and sport climbing but the rock is a finite resource and we should limit our constant onward march towards bolting any old thing that looks like it might go and leave something to future generations to possibly explore.

Having been a former rock climbing instructor I also think it is very important for new climbers to be taught about the history of rock climbing/mountaineering. I don't know if other instructors do this, and I was not told to do it, but I did in order that these new potential rock climbers would gain a perspective and respect for the progression of the sport that many of us are very passionate about and some of the events and people that pushed this sport forward. It was a very brief introduction to my course and I never got into the whole bolting ethics debate but I believe when people have a better understaning of the deep history of the "freedom of the hills" and why people continue to seek that freedom they are better equipped to become more responsible and critically thinking climbers. I wouldn't be surprised if these days there are a significant proportion of new climbers that believe that climbing was first and foremost a gym sport that then was taken over into the outside environment.

Finally I don't see a problem with the Fixed Hardwarde Review Committees such as is found at Eldo, Boulder OSMP or the Carolina Climbers Coalition Laurel Knob management plan. I realize that climbers are the types that don't want to have rules shoved down our throats but if we policed ourselves then maybe we wouldn't need to be policed by others. In my opinion self policing by a group of dedicated and respected members of the community would allow for future development, but development that was well thought out, as opposed to the development that occurs when any old yahoo with a drill gets to do whatever they want with no potential for repercussions.

Man I have been in Kansas City too long!

Montani Semper Liberi

Erik

greenalien--well said. izza, right on.

i hadn't heard about the $1000 ticket...can't be true. is it?

does anyone get the feeling that much of this bolting is a little desperate? as in, "i'm another dan hare" or some kind of thing? dunno, seems a little vain in a way. who knows?

damn, my elbow's trashed and look at me...surfing mp posts and blathering. ugh. heal me, lord, heal me!

bruceH, a voice of reason.

rob

p.s. just read Matt Wilder's account of a FFA on the n side of devil's thumb....ANCIENT fixed gear that he's considering removing on a route that goes 14a R.....notice he asked if anyone knew who'd placed a couple 1/4" bolts, a head, and some other mank....before he's removing/modifying any of the gear he'd like to chat with the first ascensionists....

STANDARD PRACTICE and has been for decades.

i vote for maintaining that tradition.......

still no word from the tonnere/bihedral gang? mmmmmm.

+1 for greenalien and Izza summing it up so well.

Our rock and our access is finite. I hate to say it but for certain areas the rock may not have any more good lines left (the horror!)
Does El Cap need another 200+ bolt forced route? Does BC NEED more sport climbs? Ask Dan Hare about BC routes, he could recommend a lifetime of good routes in BC alone (he only put up several hundred!)

There are some good points being brought up. Thegreenalien summed it up well and made me think of some points that I had not thought about.

I still think that climbing is all about fun and that getting too caught up in climbing ethics is silly. After all, we are all just halling our fat asses up a rock. Getting all up in arms about the manner in which it is ok to haul said ass up rock is ridiculous. With that being said many of the points being brought up are not points of "climbing ethics" but rather of general ethics.

I am a little embarased that I had not thought of the ecological impacts or access issues of bolting a crag like this. Treading lightly is usually the first thing on my mind when enjoying the outdoors picking up trash ect., but it is easy to forget about when you are sitting in an office arguing with people you have never met.

Thank you to those who have brought up good points on both sides rather than the usual climbing ethics pissing contest.

Lots of good points here. I'll just add that it does matter, because even if you throw out "ethics" and environmental concerns - access is eventually an issue. Imagine someone going up to the Flatirons and scraping all the lichen off, ripping out plants, bolting the hell out of everything. There would be an uproar and not just from climbers. Obviously this is already illegal, but my point is that it might very well become illegal to bolt at all in BOCAN if this keeps up.

It seems like it would be in the best interest of the climbing community if these route developers used a bit more restraint. I'm all for new routes and enjoy climbing on them. As greenalien pointed out with a bit more effort (or less effort I suppose you could say) these new crags would not generate so much flak AND still be loved by many.

I'll also throw in that spacing bolts out to a reasonable degree isn't saying "oh this is an R route now!" With modern equipment and ropes there is no reason bolts have to be placed so close together that you can almost clip two at once. This is NOT a safety issue and I'm all for safety in climbing. There seem to be plenty of ways to make a bolted climb totally safe without having a continuous TR. It doesn't make new lead climbers any safer to have a virtual TR. They don't conquer any fear or learn how to relax on lead. Making it more unsafe on future leads where they might get in over their heads.

+1 on not bolting cracks...ever.
-1000 on cleaning a crack, then bolting it......what is up with that?

I do appreciate the new route development though. There is plenty to keep me busy on the FR for a long time, but new routes are great - if done well.

Hello everyone, I’m bored at work and find this topic to be relevant and important to discuss.

I am currently taking sport climbing course and the first thing we are taught to do besides belay is clip bolts asap.

Now, I have never been climbing at a very high angle and cannot speak with much experience about levels of vertigo...hopefully this will change in a few years.

However I have read enough and know enough to understand when something is being abused. Bolt clipping is used for emergency situations!!!!....why is it that these days people are relying on this to even make a red-point attempt?

The only way I think bolt-clipping should be used is if you have already climbed the cliff without them. (ex. guides who have climbed w/o bolts; thereby using them to be stronger for the sake of helping a partner in the future).

I feel that if you know you can't make it without this emergency application, you do not belong on the cliff!

There are sooooo many cliffs around the world...why not climb something you are physically able to do without relying on something that is used for emergencies.

The only way I think bolts should be used is if you attempted to climb without them and are coming down because you are too disoriented and need emergency help.

Thoughts?

sorry, I can't stop laughing -- inspired by 2R

self-admittedly, I am one of the best to have a beer with

I am trying so hard to resist...but I checked that darn box that notifies me when people respond....and someone has to tell me what IMHO means (I am old). My goodness this forum has been a doozy. There are so many views because deep down we all fear entering any of the extremes. Good communication and understanding will spare us all from losing our access, our history and our beauty of the outdoors. So many wonderful points.

I did notice my comments on Everest keep getting remarks despite it being a sidebar (although tied in many ways) to the main topic of bolting in BC....perhaps Everest needs another forum entirely. Having done it via the easy fixed line route, I just have to comment as I think I mentioned early on, I have spent three years obsessing over this mountain and the value of the experience.

I simply must try to express a deep belief I now hold about this mountain and other peaks for that matter.

For one person, climbing the fixed line up the South Col of Everest might be just as hard and take the same amount of "perceived" effort as it does for another person who is going without oxygen on a new route. Erik W. (blind climber) did an amazing thing to climb Everest. One could argue the experience was diminished because he was guided, clipped fixed line and had porters. I simply say, "Hats off to you Erik - you did an amazing climb." My 66 year old dad plans to climb Kili next year...he will be guided and he will have porters...but I gaurantee it will be his biggest accomplishment and something that he will work hard for and be proud of doing.

I know at my age, my body will never allow me to do a 5.13 route (hell who I am I kidding, I may never get a 5.12 at this rate)....and the darn 5.8r to the right of Touch n Go in Eldo, will take just as much out of me and require everything I have to get up it. I will feel like I just did a 5.13 and I want to think of myself as a RAD and TRAD climber.

What is so hurtful about this forum is when things are said that make a person feel bad or not worthy. I won't cut and paste the comments but there are many. When I first mentioned Cascade I wanted to applaud it as I had FUN there and saw so many others having fun and pushing their limits. It is nice to have something for every level of climber (yes we must respect FAs, the rock and the rules). The more people enjoying the rock or the mountain the bigger the feeder pool for the Access Fund etc...

Before you beat me up too much, I know that people are always going to get in over their head on routes and on mountains....and behind the wheels of cars, and in relationships and require a rescue...it is the nature of the beast. Shall we talk about abortion next?