Don't Be (C)rude

Tony Bubb wrote: You should know in advance that I'd literally just met Wade and never climbed with him before. He has no obligations to me nor reason to support me if I was lying. We both shrugged and moved on to our own climbing experience once you (mark) were no longer above us.

Insignificant. I never accused you two of being in cahoots to make me look bad. He hasn't actually shed any new light on the situation anyway, which makes it even less significant.

Tony wrote:It didn't ruin our day.

I, as well, had a good day. Now aren't you glad that I didn't stop and talk to you? Do you not realize that your lecture most likely would have turned into an argument, thus leaving a bad taste in both our mouths? You just re-affirmed my decision to walk by without greeting you.

--Marc

Mark Nelson wrote:It's like tying the tails of two cats together on a string and throwin them over the the clothes line.

Son, you have a vivid imagination.

But what if one of the cats is stoned?

Mark Nelson wrote:It's like tying the tails of two cats together on a string and throwin them over the the clothes line. I'm bout due for a PBR.

Nice... Make it something darker. I'll join in with one after my call with Wuxi.

Richard Radcliffe wrote: Son, you have a vivid imagination. But what if one of the cats is stoned?

But that's the one up above with no string and an Ipod. He'll fight later, once he's sober.

Marc H wrote: Insignificant. I never accused you two of being in cahoots to make me look bad. He hasn't actually shed any new light on the situation anyway, which makes it even less significant.

Really? I read this part:

Wade Frank wrote: Yup, Tony is right, that is exactly how it went down. As tony stated this was my first lead and climb in Eldo ever, and I remember every bit of it.

Mark, it is not insignificant in the face of your rather nasty allegations against me, that's just sad.

• You said you were not above us, I said you were.
• You said we were leading, I said we were not. You said you were 20' away, I said an armspan, and traveresed directly over us.
• I said you repeated a move several times and I moved out of the fall line, you said you didn't.
• I saw you calling me a liar and a fabricator of stories on this...

But I think Wade just weighed in on that. So maybe it's not new light, but it certaily clarifies things, doesn't it? What you did was no big deal. But refusing to own it and making me out to be the liar here is pretty low.

Richard Radcliffe wrote: Son, you have a vivid imagination. But what if one of the cats is stoned?

as long as neither comes out of the system, safe recreational use can be enjoyed for hours, and they get a good cardio as well.

Tony Bubb wrote: Really? I read this part: Mark you said you were not above us, I said you were. You said we were leading, I said we were not. You said you were 20' away, I said an armspan, and traveresed directly over us. I said you repeated a move several times and I moved out of the fall line, you said you didn't. But I seem to remember you calling me a liar, and I think Wade just weighed in on that. So maybe it's not new light, but it certaily clarifies things, doesn't it? And in the face of your rather nasty allegations against me, that's just sad. It is not insignificant. What you did was no big deal. But refusing to own it and making me out to be a liar is low.

There's too much in this paragraph for me to bother refuting all of it. There's more incorrect than correct in it. A beginner climber saying, "Yup, Tony is right, that is exactly how it went down" means nothing to me. It proved nothing. I don't even know that he read and carefully considered your words. Tony, I can't even figure out what you're trying to say half the time with your typos and grammatical errors. Even if he did read it, I have trouble believing that he knew exactly what you were saying.

Get over it, Tony. You made up facts to better state your "case" and I called you out on it. What your climbing partner for the day said about this doesn't change that fact. You were disingenuous, Tony.

--Marc

WE are ALL CLIMBERS and will ALL pay the high toll as the ESSENCE of climbing is being LOST...
remember "Every man casts a shadow; not his body only, but his imperfectly mingled spirit. This is his grief. Let him turn which way he will, it falls opposite to the sun; short at noon, long at eve. Did you never see it?" - Thoreau

...sickening...turn off the fn computer...find the nearest ROCK...touch it, smell it, CLIMB it, and as you OVERCOME and SUCCEED and pull over the lip to the top...REFLECT and try to REMEMBER why you/we ALL do what we do. This is what I will do.
...whether we like it or not, we are ALL CLIMBERS in this TOGETHER.

Tony Bubb wrote: *I said you repeated a move several times and I moved out of the fall line, you said you didn't.

Trying to follow these posts, I don't think the above is completely faithful rendition of who said what when. TB said the following:
"When you went up and down the same sequence 4 times before succeeding, leaning out further each time, trying to get back to the crack, (directly above my head) I got nervous and stepped back away so that I was out of your fall line, just in case. It looked sketch to me."
In the context of this thread, there is a material difference between "several" and "four," even though four may qualify as "several."

pfwein wrote: Trying to follow these posts, I don't think the above is completely faithful rendition of who said what when. TB said the following: "When you went up and down the same sequence 4 times before succeeding, leaning out further each time, trying to get back to the crack, (directly above my head) I got nervous and stepped back away so that I was out of your fall line, just in case. It looked sketch to me." In the context of this thread, there is a material difference between "several" and "four," even though four may qualify as "several."

Yes, and it was all written carefully to discredit me by trying to make me look like a weak climber who has no business soloing--especially while stoned. It is utterly transparent. He did the same thing in private emails with:

Tony wrote:I'm seriously getting lecured [sic] by a guy who smokes bud but won't pay his hospital bills?

Interesting, considering he was the one that started the lecturing. Funny, considering the hospital bills (which I paid after much negotiation) have absolutely nothing to do with the incident at hand. It's just another transparent attempt to make me look incredible.

Or maybe he was just trying to piss me off. Either way, it was a jackass move.

--Marc

Will S wrote: The State of California and my doctor happen to disagree with you, along with the majority of Californians who voted for Prop215 allowing medical use of cannabis. Similarly, AK, CO, HI, ME, MI, MT, NV, NM, OR, RI, VT, and WA permit medical MJ. SORRY, that is just the way it is!!!11111!!!! (see, I used a definitive declaration, with words in all caps and lots of exclamation points, so it must be inviolable truth!!!!11111)

Sorry I should have clarified the "recreational use" not that I have anything against it in fact I would prefer they legalize it, its just not right now. And for medical purposes I think you still need to be at home when using, I may be wrong but I think that is the case.

Hank Caylor wrote: Tony, please let me give you the greatest stoner belay ever. It will reaffirm your trust in bakers, I promise.

Classic.

While I agree that sometimes other groups get outta hand, I think a few on MP need to chill out a little. If safety becomes an issue, you should be speaking up at the crag and settling it then and there, not waiting to bring it up on the forums. We have some sick climbing throughout Colorado and the West, and are pretty fortunate to be here, so stop complaining about the small things (save safety issues and extreme cases), and enjoy your climbs.

Marc H wrote:Oh, I can be civil. That doesn't mean that I'm going to intentionally put myself in a situation where Tony feels that it's OK to lecture me. I absolutely hate it when someone who doesn't know me; doesn't know what I'm capable of (or not capable of, as the case may be); and feels it's his place to give me unsolicited advice. Let's not forget that the whole reason this discussion began is because at least one other person (other than me) thought that Tony was out of line with his lecture. It's that simple. Do you make eye contact with every transient out there holding a sign asking for money? I doubt it. That's because you know that they're looking for something that you (probably) don't want to give them. In this case, I avoided saying "Hello" to Tony because I didn't want to get drawn into a conversation with him where he scolds me for smoking and climbing. I don't feel bad for that at all; I wanted to preserve the fun that I was having that day and I'm glad that I was able to do so. How do you know these two climbers on Calypso didn't offer the climb to every person that walked by that day? How do you know that others were interested in the climb while they were on it? Just because it's a sunny weekend in Eldo doesn't make it so. Not to mention the fact that they have every right to set up a TR on any route on public land that they wish. You are being unfairly critical of two climbers out having a good time, IMO. And, again, I think you're passing unfair judgment on these two climbers without actually knowing all of the important facts. --Marc

Normally I wouldn't take the bait, but I'm bored and mad I'm flying home tomorrow. So . . .

First off, you are obviously taking this way more seriously than I was in my post. Second, the only thing I had a problem with was you purposefully ignoring climbers you were about to solo close to, even if not directly above. Equating Tony to a transient is asinine. The reason this raised my pique was because I hate it when in a social place like Eldo people can't be cordial enough to say hello when I greet them. It doesn't happen often, but when it does it pisses me off. This is the only thing I'm objecting to. You can get as blazed as you want and go solo the Naked Edge for all I care. But at least be cordial while doing it. Last time I checked, saying 'hello' to someone usually doesn't bring on a screed about drug use. I highly doubt Tony was just waiting for you to speak to him so he'd get a chance to 'lecture' you about your own personal choice with regards to the herb.

As for the Calypso TR, based on what has been said so far in this thread, I stand by my original statement (even though I was thousand of miles away when it happened). Neither should anyone take my opinion as a personal judgement on them. I simply think that hogging a popular route at Eldo on a weekend for hours by hanging a TR on it is not good form. And quite obviously from the guys post, other people did want to get on it and he goes on to rail at the girls for taking too much time. Granted, the girls should have asked before they went into a whole spiel about how they would have rearranged the anchor. This idea that just cause you got there first means you can do whatever the hell you want on the route is a very specious way of looking at things. I think at a trad crag like Eldo one should have to give way to people who want to lead the route if a TR has been setup on said route (particularly if its been hanging for some time). But all this has been covered before in many other threads.

Finally Marc, this is the internet: people will voice opinions, even on stuff they might not have direct knowledge of. It's the nature of the beast.

Man, you Eldo Prancers got a rough scene over there.

What this thread really needs is some Bob D. input.

Marc H wrote: There's too much in this paragraph for me to bother refuting all of it. There's more incorrect than correct in it. A beginner climber saying, "Yup, Tony is right, that is exactly how it went down" means nothing to me. It proved nothing. I don't even know that he read and carefully considered your words. Tony, I can't even figure out what you're trying to say half the time with your typos and grammatical errors. Even if he did read it, I have trouble believing that he knew exactly what you were saying. Get over it, Tony. You made up facts to better state your "case" and I called you out on it. What you're climbing partner for the day said about this doesn't change that fact. You lied, Tony. --Marc

Im new to trad climbing, but I have been climbing for a couple years, I was not ignorant to what Tony was telling me and what I witnessed. It is simple, both Tony and I remember it one way and you remember it another. Its really not that big of a deal at this point, but I hate the term Liar being thrown around loosly. Really, neither Tony or I gave it a second thought the rest of the day.

Wade Frank wrote: And for medical purposes I think you still need to be at home when using, I may be wrong but I think that is the case.

Wade--I appreciate that you acknowledge that you may be wrong, but why do you think you need to be at home when "using" (interesting word choice-would you use the same term for someone taking any other legal medication, even one that has psychoactive effects)?
I may be wrong too, but right now I think you're wrong (I'll gladly correct this post if you or anyone else here actually knows anything about this)--just curious.
If one may legally use (just talking CO law, not federal law, and remember that Eldo is a state park) medical MJ in Eldo, would TB still be justified in lecturing a stranger about the evils of MJ, when TB does not know if the user has a prescription?
(Again, not trying to ruffle anyone's feathers here, just some interesting (to me, at least) issues being raised.)

Mike Larson wrote: Normally I wouldn't take the bait, but I'm bored and mad I'm flying home tomorrow.

I like it when people play with me. :)

Mike wrote:So . . . First off, you are obviously taking this way more seriously than I was in my post.

Yes, I'm taking it more seriously than you because I was there and involved. You were not. That should explain the difference in investment.

Mike wrote:Second, the only thing I had a problem with was you purposefully ignoring climbers you were about to solo close to, even if not directly above. Equating Tony to a transient is asinine.

Equating Tony to transients isn't asinine. In fact, I think it's pretty similar. I avoid eye contact with transients because I don't want to be asked for money; I avoided contact with Tony because I didn't want to get into a discussion regarding pot and climbing with him. It's likely that a passing transient will ask you for money; I had been warned by other climbers that it was likely that Tony would lecture me on smoking and climbing. It's a more than fair assumption on my part, IMO. If you don't believe me, please read on.

Mike wrote:Last time I checked, saying 'hello' to someone usually doesn't bring on a screed about drug use. I highly doubt Tony was just waiting for you to speak to him so he'd get a chance to 'lecture' you about your own personal choice with regards to the herb.

See, this is where the facts of the day are important. Tony had already gone over to a group of climbers and gave them his unsolicited advice regarding pot and climbing. There's a very good reason to expect he'd do the same to me if he suspected (as he did; he admitted discussing it with his partner while I was climbing) that I was the one that was smoking. So, I disagree that Tony was not "just waiting for you to speak to him so he'd get a chance to 'lecture' you about your own personal choice..."; I'm quite sure he was waiting for an opportunity to thrust his views upon me.

Mike wrote:The reason this raised my pique was because I hate it when in a social place like Eldo people can't be cordial enough to say hello when I greet them. It doesn't happen often, but when it does it pisses me off. This is the only thing I'm objecting to.

I don't know if these two guys tried to greet me. I was wearing an iPod. There are several reasons that I wear an iPod soloing. One of them is for meditative purposes. Another is so that I'm not disturbed while climbing; it's important that I keep my game head on, obviously. When I'm on a ledge or otherwise in a safe place, I will almost always greet those climbers around me. If you saw someone jogging down the road near you while wearing an iPod, would you try to strike up a conversation with them? I don't know if Tony and Wade tried to strike up a conversation with me, but if they did, that would be pretty silly.

Mike wrote:Finally Marc, this is the internet: people will voice opinions, even on stuff they might not have direct knowledge of. It's the nature of the beast.

True that. But please remember that I'm going to call you out for passing judgment without knowing all of the facts. It's just the nature... :)

--Marc

pfwein wrote: Wade--I appreciate that you acknowledge that you may be wrong, but why do you think you need to be at home when "using" (interesting word choice-would you use the same term for someone taking any other legal medication, even one that has psychoactive effects)? I may be wrong too, but right now I think you're wrong (I'll gladly correct this post if you or anyone else here actually knows anything about this)--just curious. If one may legally use (just talking CO law, not federal law, and remember that Eldo is a state park) medical MJ in Eldo, would TB still be justified in lecturing a stranger about the evils of MJ, when TB does not know if the user has a prescription? (Again, not trying to ruffle anyone's feathers here, just some interesting (to me, at least) issues being raised.)

LOL...Good point on the word "Using" I see your point as I am an insulin dependent diabetic and I never described myself as a "user", sorry. As for the comment about being at home while smoking I thought that was the case. I think the law reflects you are allowed to carry a certain amount in Colorado or is it only Denver??? (maybe an ounce, I'm not sure) but I think while smoking there are more restrictions. Anyway I probably shouldn't talk alot about what I am not well versed on. Sorry for the thread drift.

Marc H wrote: I was wearing an iPod. There are several reasons that I wear an iPod soloing. One of them is for meditative purposes. Another is so that I'm not disturbed while climbing; it's important that I keep my game head on, obviously. When I'm on a ledge or otherwise in a safe place, I will almost always greet those climbers around me. If you saw someone jogging down the road near you while wearing an iPod, would you try to strike up a conversation with them? I don't know if Tony and Wade tried to strike up a conversation with me, but if they did, that would be pretty silly.

This is just me, but when I have my Ipod in the outdoors (for instance, hiking to an objective in the Park), if I come across other people on the trail I take out one earpiece to greet them and make sure that I can hear what they are saying back. This is different than in the city where one normally never greets strangers walking down a street. I just find it makes it more pleasant for all involved. It makes me mad when I pass someone on the trail with their Ipod in and I say Hi and they just keep on walking without even looking at me. It just think it is much more cordial rather than acting like we're enjoying the outdoors in our own little bubble. But again, that's just me.

Marc H wrote:True that. But please remember that I'm going to call you out for passing judgment without knowing all of the facts. It's just the nature... :) --Marc

Touche

Marc H wrote: ...Equating Tony to transients isn't asinine. In fact, I think it's pretty similar. ...

I climbed next to Tony and Wade yesterday. Come to think of it, Tony did look a little shabby. Didn't have the cardboard sign out, though.

I wasn't there Saturday. I'll be a character witness for Tony regarding his behavior on Sunday : He conducted himself quite nicely and we had a pleasant 10 minute belay ledge conversation with no lectures - if I remember correctly :0)

Wade Frank wrote: Im new to trad climbing, but I have been climbing for a couple years, I was not ignorant to what Tony was telling me and what I witnessed. It is simple, both Tony and I remember it one way and you remember it another. Its really not that big of a deal at this point, but I hate the term Liar being thrown around loosly. Really, neither Tony or I gave it a second thought the rest of the day.

I can respect this. But the fact of the matter is that Tony injected little lies into the story that were obviously intended to make me appear incredible. Allow me to elaborate:

Tony Bubb wrote:The guy soloing walked over a few minutes later...and he climbed just a few feet over us, kinda sketching a little and slightly off the main crack 20' off the ground.

Marc H wrote:I wasn't "sketchign." [sic]

Tony then wrote:As for Sketching, OK, maybe not.

So there's one lie in black and white that I called him out on. I'm glad that he at least admitted that he fabricated part of the story.

Here's another (significant, IMO) one:

Tony wrote:When you went up and down the same sequence 4 times before succeeding, leaning out further each time...

Marc wrote:I see that you wrote that I "...went up and down the same sequence 4 times before succeeding..." It's possible that I flubbed a sequence once (or maybe even twice) before I sorted it out. But I know for a fact that I did not repeat any sequence four times that day.

Tony wrote:IF you flubbed it twice, that would mean you made it the 3rd time? I said 4th. You call it 3, I call it 4.

I didn't call it three times, what I said was:

Marc wrote:It's possible that I flubbed a sequence once (or maybe even twice) before I sorted it out.

Basically, what I said is that at the most I had to re-do the sequence twice. But you were there and probably saw all of that. Did I go up four times before figuring out the sequence? Do you not wonder why Tony threw the number "four" out there? It's to make me look bad, Wade.

--Marc