Don't Be (C)rude

Tevis Blom wrote: I've been dropped, but only by a sober person.

Funny I too have been dropped by a sober person - but probably only because I was too stoned to question whether or not they knew how to belay properly. Thankfully I landed on top of him which made everything turn out all right.

Stoners may drop people and sober people may also drop people, but boulderers and soloers never drop anyone, stoned or sober.

Staying positive here.....I was the partner with JFox in Elevenmile this Saturday.

At first in the parking lot for Turret Dome, we briefly chatted with the 2 other climbers. Nothing more than getting a little beta from the locals. Really nice people btw, Tim and Barbara from Divide. It was really nice to meet you.

Then we headed to Arch to try to get on Moby Grape. No luck as it was being monopolized by a group of young (and loud) guys. I step out of the car to check out some other routes and I see the guy on Moby Grape with out his shirt on. I was shivering in my long sleeves. Greeeaaaat, they're not only on our climb but it's being done by "that guy".

I kinda sour on the group as a hole, but whatever, they got there first.

So I'm standing under the route, checking my MP printouts to scout a different line...and Tim and Barbara walk by. We strike up a conversation (we turned the 3-pitch Schooldaze into a 5 pitch and they had watched us from the top of Staircase). Again, they are super-cool and obviously LOVE to talk all things climbing, so the conversation flowed smoothly.

So we probably spent 20-25 minutes chatting, and during that time the *obnoxious* group yelled down to us, and actually asked us if we wanted to climb Moby Grape. Pretty cool I thought. They saw us eyeing the route, understood that they were hording it, and offered to free it up for us. Another guy also asked us if we all wanted some bottled water since they had "tons of it". Again, very cool.

So in the 2 interactions with 2 different groups of climbers, one was fantastic; the other had the opportunity to be somewhat disruptive but turned out O.K.

Was it worth spending the last 20 minutes typing this post? Probably not....but I'm in johnL's camp on this one. The dude who has met only 2 jerk-climbers in 13 years has obviously figured something out.

(wow, sorry for the long post!!)

Marc H wrote: There are lots of "maybe's" and assumptions going on here. --Marc

A maybe is the opposite of an assumption. It is to deliberatly avoid one.

Marc H wrote:I said "Hello" to everyone that I passed that day except you. That is because I was warned that I might get a "lecture" (remember that word from your last email?; the hypocrisy is too much to ignore). So I intentionally passed by you without saying a word (although I did consider--quite fleetingly--asking you if you wanted to smoke with me :] ).

That would explain the ant-social perception of you I already mentioned having.
I don't smoke, esp while climbing thanks. I would have said:
"No thanks, and if you are going to hurt anyone today, please limit to yourself."
As for hypocricy, I find your lecturing me on the differences between Alcohol and marajuana pretty useless, and that was the context. I do some psychicatric intake work and work with drug users, abusers and OD'ers. I can tell the difference. Your complete denial that psychotropic substances have some similarities is what is scarey to me.

Marc H wrote: I would say the same for you, but it appears as though you're eternally cranky and righteous. If that's the case, then I doubt you would have had much fun anyway.

Hahhh ahha ha. Yeah, I am always cranky. Yeah, that's what people say. I can't have fun in a funhouse! Sounds the reverse, but whatever. I was ear to ear grins all day.
The cranky guy who made the post was over on Calypso. I hadn't given it a thought until it got brought up.

Marc H wrote: Once again your memory is off. Very off. I'm not going to bother trying to correct all of the mistakes in the latter paragraph because it really doesn't matter. I know where I was; you know where you were.

Please feel free to correct whatever you want to. There were plenty of other people around to verify what was going on. I know where I was, yes... And I didn't lead that pitch, and my partner waited until you were out of sight, so obviously, "dhuuuhde" (extra H's added for effect) you are mistaken.

Marc H wrote: [Edit: OK, so at first I thought that you simply might have been mistaken in your recollection. So, I went back and re-read what you wrote. I see that you wrote that I "...went up and down the same sequence 4 times before succeeding..." Now I know for a fact that you're more than just mistaken; you're actually making stuff up. It's possible that I flubbed a sequence once (or maybe even twice) before I sorted it out.

IF you flubbed it twice, that would mean you made it the 3rd time?
I said 4th. You call it 3, I call it 4. Not much difference. Hardly makes a liar out of me. It was more than once you did not reach it before I moved away so that you couldn't hit me if you fell. And you tired for it at least once after I moved. Maybe I was off by one but I can't see how that makes you completely right and me wrong. I'd have still said you got it 4th try- the intermediate move up and left over the small bulge at a little under 20 feet up. You were not stepping up high enough the first few times. You backed down from the stretch a few times, and reset feet, then maybe the 3rd time you reached out, then reached further before grabbing it.

Marc H wrote:You can't blame that on a mistake; you intentionally made that up to make me look bad. Do you don't think that I wouldn't remember if I wasn't solid while soloing? Apparently you are not above lying to make your "case." That's pathetic.]

So glad we've come to know eachother so well.
Apparently you are not above lying to make your case.
Embarassment over soling over peoples heads while toking would be one thing. Getting self-richeous about it is another.
But defaming someone else over the course of it is pretty lame.
Bake safely- don't fall, enjoy, and good luck growing up, it'll happen some day.

Marc H wrote:Have a good life, Tony. I'm done with you; I can't stand liars. Peace --Marc

That is some interesting contrast in statements.

Tony Bubb wrote: A maybe is the opposite of an assumption. It is to deliberatly avoid one. That would explain the ant-social perception of you I already mentioned having. I don't smoke, esp while climbing thanks. I would have said: "No thanks, and if you are going to hurt anyone today, please limit to yourself." As for hypocricy, I find your lecturing me on the differences between Alcohol and marajuana pretty useless, and that was the context. I do some psychicatric intake work and work with drug users, abusers and OD'ers. I can tell the difference. Your complete denial that psychotropic substances have some similarities is what is scarey to me. Hahhh ahha ha. Yeah, I am always cranky. Yeah, that's what people say. I can't have fun in a funhouse! Sounds the reverse, but whatever. I was ear to ear grins all day. The cranky guy who made the post was over on Calypso. I hadn't given it a thought until it got brought up. Please feel free to correct whatever you want to. There were plenty of other people around to verify what was going on. I know where I was, yes... And I didn't lead that pitch, and my partner waited until you were out of sight, so obviously, "dhuuuhde" (extra H's added for effect) you are mistaken. IF you flubbed it twice, that would mean you made it the 3rd time? I said 4th. You call it 3, I call it 4. Not much difference. Hardly makes a liar out of me. It was more than once you did not reach it before I moved away so that you couldn't hit me if you fell. And you tired for it at least once after I moved. Maybe I was off by one but I can't see how that makes you completely right and me wrong. I'd have still said you got it 4th try- the intermediate move up and left over the small bulge at a little under 20 feet up. You were not stepping up high enough the first few times. You backed down from the stretch a few times, and reset feet, then maybe the 3rd time you reached out, then reached further before grabbing it. So glad we've come to know eachother so well. Apparently you are not above lying to make your case. Embarassment over soling over peoples heads while toking would be one thing. Getting self-richeous about it is another. But defaming someone else over the course of it is pretty lame. Bake safely- don't fall, enjoy, and good luck growing up, it'll happen some day. That is some interesting contrast in statements.

Quoted for the record. Not that I could understand much of it. LOL.

Man, sounds like a swingin' scene over there in the People's Republic.

Do you have to pay extra for the moral scolds, or do they ship 'em in from the Springs for free?

Marc H wrote: Quoted for the record. Not that I could understand much of it. LOL.

Are you afraid I'll correct typos or something?
Regardless, you don't seem very "done with me."

I can't believe there's an argument over who led what on that face of the wind tower.

Agreed on that, Mark N. If that was what it was about. But I don't care to be called a liar by someone who has the details wrong. When someone says "No, and then you did this..."
Except for that I didn't- some discussion might result.
Note that in his post, he didn;t even know which climber was me.
Regardless of all of it, I had a nice day climbing. Nothing was more than a shrug away from who cares until it ended up on-line, which is a shame.
I feel OK about a casual commetn like 'If you guys are smoking dope, be careful belaying so nobody gets dropped.' I'd have felt terrible if I hadn't said anything and it could have turned out that someone could get hurt, so I did what I thought my conscience required of me, which was to make a casual comment and leave. Hopefully it didn't ruin anyone else's day.
If it did, they must be pretty thin skinned.

Personally, I don't like getting made out to be a nazi for it, or being called a liar about someone soloing, and that irks me, but I'm about ready to go head to work, and I'll have forgotten about it by the time I am there.

Its stuff like this that makes MP great. Much more entertaining than the usual drivel.

I just wish more people were taking sides, and forcefully. People toking up while climbing is nothing knew and its their business as long as it doesn't effect me. But Marc purposefully ignoring a fellow climber before climbing above them is just bad form. Just because you don't like the guy doesn't mean you can't be civil.

Also, hanging a toprope on Calypso for hours? No bueno.

I was the climber climbing with Tony that day and yes we smelled the POT and it was strong and we discussed how we both had no personal issue with the recreational use of POT. That said Tony told me the story of how he was dropped by his belayer who was using. Tony was EXTREEMLY lucky in that incident to not have died from the fall and told me he felt compelled to share the story. I thought Tony was friendly to say the least and remained friendly during the conversation, I even got the impression that the party was being friendly with Tony and I figured they probably even knew one another.

I am a strong beleiver in learning from others experiences. Tony gave his oppinion with a "take it or leave it" approch. The reason he brought it up in the first place was because he cared about the safety of some climbers he didnt even know. If he was a jerk he wouln't share his oppinions in the first place and stood idle while someones life was potentially in danger.

As for "your rights" yes you do have the right to climb in Eldo, however it is not your right to smoke pot, regardless of your personal beleifs, SORRY that is just the way it is!!!

On a second note Tony doesn't even like to talk on the cell phone while he is driving because he knows his judgement could be impared and he cares for his safety and the safty of those around him. That is just how he is!!!

"Take it or Leave it"!!!

[drift]Mike L., how's Europe? I'm jealous! Look me up when you get back for some spring alpine![/drift]

Wade Frank wrote:however it is not your right to smoke pot, regardless of your personal beleifs, SORRY that is just the way it is!!!

The State of California and my doctor happen to disagree with you, along with the majority of Californians who voted for Prop215 allowing medical use of cannabis.

Similarly, AK, CO, HI, ME, MI, MT, NV, NM, OR, RI, VT, and WA permit medical MJ. SORRY, that is just the way it is!!!11111!!!! (see, I used a definitive declaration, with words in all caps and lots of exclamation points, so it must be inviolable truth!!!!11111)

Mike Larson wrote:But Marc purposefully ignoring a fellow climber before climbing above them is just bad form.

If I had indeed been climbing directly above them, then I might agree with you here. I was climbing to their right. Eventually I did make my way to the left. If I had fallen at that point, I would have fallen to the right; anyone that's tossed a rope off of the ledge above knows this (whether or not they're willing to admit it is another issue.) I think that is all moot anyway because of my next point.

When someone is soloing, falling is not an option. The whole idea of planning out a solo so that I'm not above others "just in case I fall" is contrary to the soloing mentality, IME.

You're also much more likely to get hurt by a falling piece of gear or rock than a falling soloist.

There's also the fact that you're assuming Tony's account of the situation is correct; unfortunately, it's not correct.

Mike, I came up with four reasons why I think you're argument is flawed. No offense, but you should have a better idea of the situation before you chime in about me specifically. You weren't there; you're passing judgment on me based on Tony's incorrect recollection of the events that transpired and assumptions to fill in the blanks. That's not fair to me.

Mike wrote:Just because you don't like the guy doesn't mean you can't be civil.

Oh, I can be civil. That doesn't mean that I'm going to intentionally put myself in a situation where Tony feels that it's OK to lecture me. I absolutely hate it when someone who doesn't know me; doesn't know what I'm capable of (or not capable of, as the case may be); and feels it's his place to give me unsolicited advice. Let's not forget that the whole reason this discussion began is because at least one other person (other than me) thought that Tony was out of line with his lecture. It's that simple.

Do you make eye contact with every transient out there holding a sign asking for money? I doubt it. That's because you know that they're looking for something that you (probably) don't want to give them. In this case, I avoided saying "Hello" to Tony because I didn't want to get drawn into a conversation with him where he scolds me for smoking and climbing. I don't feel bad for that at all; I wanted to preserve the fun that I was having that day and I'm glad that I was able to do so.

Mike wrote:Also, hanging a toprope on Calypso for hours? No bueno.

How do you know these two climbers on Calypso didn't offer the climb to every person that walked by that day? How do you know that others were interested in the climb while they were on it? Just because it's a sunny weekend in Eldo doesn't make it so. Not to mention the fact that they have every right to set up a TR on any route on public land that they wish. You are being unfairly critical of two climbers out having a good time, IMO. And, again, I think you're passing unfair judgment on these two climbers without actually knowing all of the important facts.

--Marc

Marc H wrote: How do you know these two climbers on Calypso didn't offer the climb to every person that walked by that day? How do you know that others were interested in the climb while they were on it? And, again, I think you're passing unfair judgment on these two climbers without actually knowing all of the important facts. --Marc

Well, I was interested, but I didn't say anything because they were on it. They claimed that the 2 girls were interested, so that's at least 2.
And... there's a simple litmus test for the first Question-
Adam Berger, did they offer the guys in your group a ride? If so, then Mark has a point, if not, then he doesn't.

Tony Bubb wrote: Well, I was interested, but I didn't say anything because they were on it. They claimed that the 2 girls were interested, so that's at least 2. And... there's a simple litmus test for the first Question- Adam Berger, did they offer the guys in your group a ride? If so, then Mark has a point, if not, then he doesn't.

The point is that Mike wasn't there and Mike passed judgment on the two climbers without (presumably) knowing the facts.

It's not always about you, Tony.

So, regardless of the answer to your question, Tony, I do have a point. The point is that if "someone" doesn't know the particular facts about a situation, then that "someone" shouldn't pass judgment on those people that were involved. Pretty simple.

--Marc

Either you buzzed a lot of people that day or you were stoned, because Wade was not yet leading, of that there is no question. HE should remember- it was his first lead in ELdo, ever, and someone soloed over his head just before he started.
We sat there below you looking up at your ass, shrugging and had a little discussion about how probable it was that you were the smoker, and if or not it would have been more polite of you to at least say hello before soloing above us. We had a short conversation, and my conclusion to Wade was "it's a trad area, soling here is not unusual, but I guess I personally would avoid going right over someone without at least saying hello" and made a sideways comment referring to the potential social effects (loosing inhabitions) of toking. Maybe you didn't hear us because of the Ipod, or maybe you were a little too "mellow" to get it?

Yup, Tony is right, that is exactly how it went down. As tony stated this was my first lead and climb in Eldo ever, and I remember every bit of it.

In over 15 years of regular climbing around Boulder (majority of the time on classic "trade routes" of 5.9 and below), I've had almost no problems with other climbers. One negative incident stands out--some guy was meditating at the base of the SW corner of Beer Barrel Buttress before summoning the strength to send that proud VO. I like to do that for warm ups (usually do a couple laps) when I'm there, and patiently waited for him to finish the problem, but I did quickly follow him up. He then started his meditation routine at the equally proud South Face of BBB and asked me with a sneer if I was going to follow him on that. I responded with my own sarcastic, unpleasant retort, and that was that.
It left me with a bad taste, but the fact that this incredibly minor incident stands out in my mind shows how rare problems are for people who don't go looking for them. Or maybe I've just been lucky.
I do get a chuckle when people who've never been to Boulder tell me about the terrible egos of Boulder climbers, and how they're so glad they're someplace else. I am too!
EDIT--just read the post above. Wade--you should make it clear that you're quoting in the above post. I read it and first thought "Why is Wade referring to himself in the third person--I thought only celebrities like 'The Donald.' did that." (In case this isn't obvious, this is just a joke--I don't want to get in the middle of the developing flame war here.)

Wade Frank wrote:Yup, Tony is right, that is exactly how it went down. As tony stated this was my first lead and climb in Eldo ever, and I remember every bit of it.

Marc H wrote:I said "Hello" to everyone that I passed that day except you. That is because I was warned that I might get a "lecture"... So I intentionally passed by you without saying a word (...). I was having a good day and didn't want anything to spoil it. I'm now even more glad that I ignored you as I passed by. It definitely helped preserve the fun that I was having that day.

Wade Frank wrote:Yup, Tony is right, that is exactly how it went down. As tony stated this was my first lead and climb in Eldo ever, and I remember every bit of it.

You should know in advance that I'd literally just met Wade and never climbed with him before. He has no obligations to me nor reason to support me if I was lying. We both shrugged and moved on to our own climbing experience once you (mark) were no longer above us. It didn't ruin our day. Too bad it came to this on-line.

It's like tying the tails of two cats together on a string and throwin them over the the clothes line.

I'm bout due for a PBR.