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phil wortmann
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Jan 3, 2009
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Colorado Springs, Co.
· Joined Feb 2005
· Points: 1,608
"Perhaps we should dumb climbing down to the least common denominator, which is the least experienced, least judgemental, most casual, most inattentive human." - Greg D
Ok, daytime emmy, there's no reason not to look out for others. Of course there's danger in climbing and noone is saying that Stewart and co. should be sued or hauled off to jail. But, smart people will always try to think of ways to prevent tragedies like this one. And if you think you've never been lucky to get by on a bad choice, you're just way smarter than the rest of us mere mortals. Museum pieces belong in ...museums, not at the top of routes.
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phil wortmann
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Jan 3, 2009
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Colorado Springs, Co.
· Joined Feb 2005
· Points: 1,608
Like I said, Stewart and them have done a great job replacing anchors. But, if there's anything to learn from this accident, it should be that the old anchor should have been removed.
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Tony B
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Jan 3, 2009
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Around Boulder, CO
· Joined Jan 2001
· Points: 24,677
phil wortmann wrote:Like I said, Stewart and them have done a great job replacing anchors. But, if there's anything to learn from this accident, it should be that the old anchor should have been removed. If presented in the light that Stewart had saved it for his expressed purpose, and was not accounting for how silly of an action might have been taken (and in this case was) and that this opens up a new thought or possibility to consider for the future... Can we find common ground agreeing that an obviously bad anchor should perhaps be removed in the future without hinting at any blame on Stewart, where none should be found? I think that is what Phil seems to say in this last post. He replaced an anchor so that people would not be forced to rely on aging, but redundant gear. It is not incumbant upon him to dream up and then react to every uninformed, ignorant, foolish, or misguided option or possibility that may occur to any number of other people. His was not the error in logic or intent. The error was with the end user. As others have pointed out, you can't reduce everything to the lowest common demominator, if for no other reason that nobody is smart enough to imagine how creative ignorance can get. If taken to the logical extreme, then no fixed gear should ever be place, lest it be eventually damaged, decayed or otherwise unsafe before being replaced, or otherwise misused. But I don't see that as a proper reaction at all. On a side note, have any of Stewart's accusers thought for a moment on exactly what effort might be required to pull the old anchors, what paperwork might be required for managed lands, or what uproar he might cause with the "museum" crowd? Let's at least apply the good Samaratin law.
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phil wortmann
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Jan 3, 2009
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Colorado Springs, Co.
· Joined Feb 2005
· Points: 1,608
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Stewart M. Green
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Jan 4, 2009
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Unknown Hometown
· Joined Dec 2002
· Points: 161
Thanks for all the thoughts and opinions and sentiments regarding the Garden accident and the anchors. I think all the bases have been thoroughly covered. We didn't chop the old anchors. Maybe it was a mistake, maybe not. It's gone now so no worries. But as many noted, it is not the responsibility of anyone who puts in new fixed gear or upgrades old gear to take in all the possibilities of how it may or may not be used by other climbers. As Tony so aptly says, "nobody is smart enough to imagine how creative ignorance can get." We all, whether experienced or novice, climb at our own risk. What we do on the rocks to safeguard our lives is entirely up to us. The risks we take are the risks we chose to take. If we chose to rappel or lower from a single anchor, we have to take the responsibility for what might happen if it falls. If we don't have the evaluative skills or knowledge to climb safely, then we need to climb with more experienced climbers or take classes from a guide. All experienced climbers, however, have stories about the dumb learning mistakes they made as tyros. Brian Shelton and myself, along with other CSprings climbers like Brad Saren, have replaced many anchors and fixed gear at the Garden of the Gods. Some has been donated through the Climbing Magazine Anchor Replacement Initiative (ARI) and some we have bought. We replaced bad anchors on routes like The Fixer, Cocaine, Crescent Corner, Mighty Thor, End to End, and Anaconda. On many of them, we removed the old gear and reused the holes whenever possible, but mostly we had to drill new holes, leaving gaping empty holes. I have talked with the Colo Spgs Park & Rec Department about what material they want us to use to fill these holes, and they don't really have an approved material yet. So we have left them empty, pending tests on various materials and how they weather and look before they can be filled. This is important since the area is a National Natural Landmark. On some routes we have left the old fixed gear. Back 10 years ago when Earl Wiggins and I began this process by replacing fixed pins and anchors on Finger Traverse and Tedricks and the Pipe Route, we got a great deal of crap from some local climbers who felt that we needed to preserve some of the old gear as "museum" pieces, that it needed to be left in next to the new stuff. And there is some validity in that argument because the Garden of the Gods is one of the oldest developed climbing areas in the US and this was where the use of drilled fixed pitons began (Harvey T Carter's idea). So in a way the Garden was the nation's first sport climbing area! It would be too bad if all of Harvey's original pitons were chopped. Also it is difficult to remove all the old gear from the Garden's sandstone without further damaging the rock. When I replaced the first two bolts on Silver Spoon with new 1/2" x 8" bolts, the second old piton that I placed in 1972 would not come out so rather than continue hammering away and damaging the soft rock around it with a crowbar, I left it in place. It's up to the leader to make an evaluative choice there--should I use a rusted Army angle or a 1/2" bolt...hmmmmm tough choice. Over the next few months, we will continue to replace key anchors at the Garden, particularly ones that are used by the CSprings Fire Department's High Angle Rescue Team. Brian and I have gone all over the cliffs with the firemen and we have identified where about 30 new stainless steel glue-in anchors will be placed and where existing ones will be left but beefed up with new gear. Some big eyebolts, for instance, up in Tourist Gully are used for rescue as well as for belay anchors for routes on the Finger Face. Some have been damaged and bent over by rockfall. Rather than removing these, however, the FD wants us to leave them and put in new eyebolts nearby. The old ones, while perhaps somewhat weaker, can then be used as body-weight anchors and for multiple tie-ins if a litter needs to be lowered. These guys, who are in the profession of saving lives, feel that we don't need to chop them out and that they are still useful. Lastly, we have been approved to replace fixed pitons and anchors on a bunch more Garden routes, some of which, like Indecent Exposure," have fallen out of favor because the old gear is literally falling out. I suggest that anyone who wants to bitch about the job that we are doing can get off their butts and be part of the effort and the solution. It can be a lot of work rigging ropes, prying out the old stuff, filling (hopefully) the old holes, and putting in new gear. That way you can be part of the solution. If you're there and look at the old stuff and think it should be removed, then that option can be exercised then and there. Until then, however, we'll decide what is the best course of action for each replaced anchor. Climbing is dangerous. That's a fact. We need to look after ourselves on the rock...but we can't be looking after everyone else out there. Climb safe.
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Ian Spencer-Green
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Jan 6, 2009
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Fort Collins, CO
· Joined Jun 2008
· Points: 15
I really cannot believe the ridiculously selfish responses this thread has drawn. Hands down, plain and simple this accident was SOLEY the result of the climber. Apparently, he was an inexperienced climber that had zero education in climbing safely. As was noted, the primary step to climbing safely is: Never Trust a Single Anchor. Furthermore, the essence of the sport of climbing is (and as is noted in every guidebook and training manual) – Climb At Your Own Risk. Nobody but oneself is responsible for one’s safety once the decision is made to step foot on the rock. It is not the responsibility of he who equips a first ascent to make the route completely safe. It is at the discretion of the bolter to decide where bolts should be and how many he feels the particular route requires. There exist many ill-equipped routes across the planet. That is the nature of the beast. One can choose to attempt any route they desire, but the protection certainly may be questionable. It is solely up to the climber to make continual decisions about his/her personal safety. Stewart Green and Brian Shelton have done an exceptional job in replacing questionable anchors and bolts, especially in the Garden of the Gods. If you want to complain about their work, I suggest you 1) Get off your lazy rear-end off the couch, 2) Go negotiate the politics of replacing anchors with the City of Colorado Springs, 3) Spend your hard earned cash to purchase bolts, epoxy, and the other bolting equipment, and 4) Spend your valuable time to physically replace bolts and anchors to make climbing safer for others. If you go replace bolts yourself, then yes by all means remove all old hardware if it suits your fancy. Do you critics also whine and complain when you hike to crag and trail is too steep? Or are you thankful someone built a trail period and you’re not bushwhacking? The Garden is truly a historical area and it would be a shame if all the classic protection was replaced and removed for shiny new hangers. The old protection is one of the qualities that makes the Garden the classic place it is. Not to mention, the rock is so soft it may do more damage to a route to remove the old pro. Once again, it is at the discretion of whoever’s doing the replacement. In conclusion, I believe Stewart has absolutely no responsibility to the accident whatsoever. In fact, he merely provided the option of a new 3 bolt anchor, which any knowledgeable climber would have used. The point is – the accident would have certainly occurred without the new anchor. However, with the new anchor any future climber has the choice of clipping good bolts instead of rusted out angle irons. That choice, as always, is up to the climber. So next time, rather than criticize, congratulate those who are working towards maker old routes safer! It is a gift that the climbing community should appreciate. And remember, Climb At Your Own Risk!
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Ryan Tuleja
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Jan 6, 2009
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Unknown Hometown
· Joined Oct 2005
· Points: 10
I still vote for the bolt-on ladders. Then I could not only get down safely, but I could climb 5.20 I bet!
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Hank Caylor
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Jan 6, 2009
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Livin' in the Junk!
· Joined Dec 2003
· Points: 643
JLP wrote:If it was non-fatal, and given the obvious inexperience, perhaps the Green's should be just as well thanked rather than blamed for inadvertently teaching the victim a valuable lesson. If the victim continues to climb, they will no doubt soon find themselves in far more demanding and dangerous situations than a 1 pitch bolted rap. Good response. I just don't want to fill a page with rhetoric. P.S.-Ian- what are you doing these days. PM me. please
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Gregger Man
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Jan 6, 2009
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Broomfield, CO
· Joined Aug 2004
· Points: 1,834
Perhaps the victim learned to climb from this website Just 5 easy steps!
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Rick Blair
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Jan 6, 2009
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Denver
· Joined Oct 2007
· Points: 266
Greg! Thanks, that was funny as hell. I needed a laugh. Is that legit or do you think the poster is trying to be funny?
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Gregger Man
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Jan 6, 2009
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Broomfield, CO
· Joined Aug 2004
· Points: 1,834
The author posted several other articles on diverse topics with about the same level of instruction. Deadpan or blockhead? Life is so vague sometimes.
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Stewart M. Green
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Jan 6, 2009
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Unknown Hometown
· Joined Dec 2002
· Points: 161
We're having a meeting with the CS Fire Dept on Thursday to talk more about the incident. They're planning on having the accident victim there so we can all interview him. I'll post the results...
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H BL
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Jan 6, 2009
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Colorado
· Joined Feb 2006
· Points: 95
Go Ian & Stewart! I rarely ever climb at the Garden anymore as can be read in my earlier post, but what ever happened to PERSONAL RESPONSIBLITY? The fact that there were 3 good bolts to rap off of, come on. It is up to you as the leader to be able to distinguish how good those bolts are. Unfortunately this guy learned the hard way.
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pfwein Weinberg
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Jan 6, 2009
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Boulder, CO
· Joined May 2006
· Points: 71
Mike Lane wrote:The concept that you never, ever, ever rap/lower/toprope on a single anything is literally a sacrosanct tenet we all try to adhere to religiously. How anyone can make it beyond his first 10 minutes into climbing without having this drilled into him is astounding; but somehow he did. To Mike and others who made similar comments--ever climb in Europe? Standard set up I've seen sport climbing in Italy is to lower off of one steel carabiner (which is connected to two bolts). That is not the same thing as what caused this accident (I've never heard of a steel carabiner breaking in the field, although perhaps there's a first time for everything). I don't know if the injured person would be well served to memorize some "rules" which huge numbers of people (Europeans) don't seem to be aware of--he seems to be more in need of comprehensive climbing education or a least education in anchors, many of which do rely upon a "single anything" (huge eyebolt, big tree, etc.)
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Byron Murray
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Jan 6, 2009
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Boulder, CO
· Joined Jul 2005
· Points: 562
Is three new slings/webbing with a couple of rings wrapped around a tree considered a single anchor? My preference is fixed hardware. I'd rather replace hardware every 10 years than rely on questionable trees and webbing.
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Tony B
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Jan 6, 2009
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Around Boulder, CO
· Joined Jan 2001
· Points: 24,677
Stewart M. Green wrote:We're having a meeting with the CS Fire Dept on Thursday to talk more about the incident. They're planning on having the accident victim there so we can all interview him. I'll post the results... Hmmm... Well hopefully it doesn't turn nasty. I think the guy has had enough embarassment and injury. If I were in his shoes, I'm not sure I'd man up enough to come, I'd probably be too embarassed. Seriously, I'm not making fun of him, I'm just saying I'd prefer my own privacy at this point. Well, good luck and glad it turned out no worse. Remeber to respect as private what is said in private.
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pfwein Weinberg
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Jan 7, 2009
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Boulder, CO
· Joined May 2006
· Points: 71
Tony Bubb wrote: Hmmm... Well hopefully it doesn't turn nasty. I think the guy has had enough embarassment and injury. If I were in his shoes, I'm not sure I'd man up enough to come, I'd probably be too embarassed. Seriously, I'm not making fun of him, I'm just saying I'd prefer my own privacy at this point. Well, good luck and glad it turned out no worse. Remember to respect as private what is said in private. If I was the victim, I would want to spread the word of what happened in the hopes that may prevent the same thing from happening to others. Sure it's embarrassing, but at least some good may come from it, and it's not like the victim here is the first climber to do something incredibly stupid. Many of us have probably done things just as dumb, and usually came through OK due to luck. I am sure Mr. Green will report as appropriate.
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Sims
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Jan 7, 2009
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Centennial
· Joined Sep 2007
· Points: 655
SO Shane No worries belaying me, Stewart wrote the guide and may have put in the belay. He Or someone will take full responsibility. His son Ian who I have not met must repent for his father’s sins and shoulder what ever responsibly may or may not be left. I on the other hand Newbie, Gumby and never was been that I am shall climb with the knowledge that nothing is my fault I feel so safe now.
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Mike Slavens
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Jan 7, 2009
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Houston, TX
· Joined Jan 2009
· Points: 35
Stewart- Thank you for all of your efforts (including replacing bolts/anchors, and putting up new routes) to better the sport of rock climbing. Thanks to your efforts, and those like you, all climbers enjoy a better, safer climbing experience. The Garden is a very environmentally sensitive area that is highly scrutinized by many organizations including the city government. Ripping out anchors and damaging the very soft rock (read easily damaged rock) would only ruin the good reputation that has taken years for climbers to establish. It would have been irresponsible for Stewart to rip out epoxy’ed anchors. It would have been followed by miles of posts of “what idiot put the scars on the practice slab”; including posts from non-climbers who felt he vandalized the park, and could have lead to a possible ban on climbing (a stretch I know, but possible). The Garden used to be patrolled by rangers a.k.a. “Park Pigs” who would literally harass climbers and threaten police tickets if they did not immediately descend routes for questioning, which can be difficult if you are above the last piece of pro. We now have friendly volunteers who only ask that we climb safely because people like Stewart proved to the city that climbers can responsibly use the park. The climber in question broke several cardinal rules in using only one piece to rappel, and he trusted obviously untrustworthy gear while ignoring brand new gear. The safety of a climber is the sole responsibility of the climber. Unfortunately he paid for his mistake with an injury, but he only has himself to blame. All climbers need to understand all risks when climbing, and have a solid understanding of proper techniques for climbing. We will set a very dangerous precedence if we start placing blame for climbing accidents on those who place anchors. Never assume a piece of gear is reliable until you have inspected it yourself. And in the end, climbing is an inherently dangerous sport, and you take a risk every time you step off the ground. Best wished for a speedy recovery to the injured climber.
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rich scheuer
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Feb 24, 2009
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Unknown Hometown
· Joined Sep 2008
· Points: 0
I just found this forum and man am I ever glad I did. Thanks Greg for posting that awesome "learn how to climb" site. I am so stoked to go out and try climbing. It sounds like so much fun!!! After reading that article, I know I can conquer any high mountain or cliff around with or without the proper gear that I should know what to have before I go to any high mountain or cliff.
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