What is "Free" climbing?

A saw this interesting piece on the Climbing Magazine news reel, about the "first free ascent" of Wild Thing on Mt Chephren.
The articles states, "Walsh said the A3 corner went at M7, but, he added, “There were many sustained pitches of M5, M6, and WI3–5." The story is thin on details, but I assume ice tools were used for the mixed pitches.

I guess I'm kinda old-fashioned, but in my view, hanging from metal hooks ain't free climbing. Its an impressive feat, and it is certainly an improvement (in style) over classical "aid climbing". However, pulling on a shafted tool is (stylistically) no different than pulling on a cam or nut (French Free).

In the context of an extreme alpine climb, I think the distinction between mixed climbing & free climbing is less obvious, and probably less important (since free vs. aid is more of an afterthought to the alpinist, not the primary objective). I certainly have no objection with the use of mixed techniques in the mountains. Any ascent of Wild Thing is noteworthy; I'm surely too much of a p&$$y to ever attempt that thing. Nothing in the ascent is objectionable, but I disagree with the way the term "free ascent" is used in the Climbing story. I think it has the potential to create some subconcious confusion over acceptable "free" techniques. Folks have already started to blur the lines as far as when mixed climbing techniques are acceptable. For example, Jared Ogden & Ryan Nelson's "Free" ascent of the Hallucinogen Wall. The nice thing about this ascent, is that they were very clear from the get go that there tactics on the crux ptich were not generally accepted as "free". Although I noticed the fine print didsn;t make it into this particular headline (unless you know what D10+ means).

I guess I have an Orwellian fear of the term "free ascent" evolving to include all manners of jiggery pokery. Maybe I could rig a .75 camalot to the end of my ice tool and do a "free ascent" of Tricks are For Kids!

i am with you. i think that it is still aid if they used tools.
and like you said, it seemed like a pretty bad ass ascent, but lets call a spade a spade.

EDIT: whats the difference between the hooks and tools/crampons? is it the aiders?

you don't hang your body weight from the tools -- it still takes motion & body balance to make the movement (& a ton of core strength); that is what makes mixed climbing free.

Mark Nelson wrote:you don't hang your body weight from the tools -- it still takes motion & body balance to make the movement; that is what makes mixed climbing free.

thanks mark! that makes some sense!

Darren Mabe wrote: whats the difference between the hooks and tools/crampons? is it the aiders?

Mark Nelson wrote:you don't hang your body weight from the tools -- it still takes motion & body balance to make the movement (& a ton of core strength); that is what makes mixed climbing free.

Yeah, but that's true of French free techniques, too, and though estimable, they're not really "free climbing." So maybe we call tool ascents "French pointing" or "free tooling"...? That would head off the linguistic erosion Mono reasonably points to. After all, Mark, if he fitted tools with cams, he would still need all that motion, balance and core strength, but it wouldn't be free climbing.

EDIT: Or maybe writers could be consistent about including the adverb "mixed" with the adjective "free" and all would be clear...

Shawn Mitchell wrote: maybe we call tool ascents "French pointing" or "free tooling"...? That would head off the linguistic erosion Mono reasonably points to.

i heard a term from my buddy Casey, "Fraid" climbing". french-aid, or free-aid, i guess. ha ha

Shawn Mitchell wrote:EDIT: Or maybe writers could be consistent about including the adverb "mixed" with the adjective "free" and all would be clear...

EDIT: so, maybe if it had a 5.XX rating to it instead of a M rating, it would be free!?

Darren Mabe wrote:EDIT: so, maybe if it had a 5.XX rating to it instead of a M rating, it would be free!?

Not sure I understand the issue but I think it depends, Darren. What is it that's clinging to the edges...finger tips or carbon fiber? :)

Shawn Mitchell wrote: Not sure I understand the issue but I think it depends, Darren. What's clinging to the edges...finger tips or carbon fiber? :)

IMHO, fingers.
if you use tool, then its M, or A.

EDIT: mono, did we drift your thread? or hypothetically, what about if someone climbed "To Bolt" with tools, would it be free? aid? mixed?

let me dust off Freedom of the Hills and i will be right back..

similar logic -- wouldn't using shoes with rubber that better adheres to the rock also be considered aid?

tools are just an extension of your body movement.

Mark Nelson wrote:similar logic -- wouldn't using shoes with rubber that better adheres to the rock also be considered aid? tools are just an extension of your body movement.

i knew that was coming. :)

i think all these kinds of discussions all depend on when we all started climbing, and what era/generation...

hell, its all aid climbing.

If a route can bring me to vomit, then it's a free grade.

cams used to be considered cheating, even if they weren't used to attain progression; are those routes then not considered free?

The latest ascent of Wild Thing is not a free ascent. Sorry, it takes lots of effort, but its not free. I know two of the first ascentionists of this route very well... I haven't spoken with them since but I'm sure they are impressed with the effort. Peter does the Mthing and is a 5.12 free climber... he is no dihard old schooler. Barry has a reputation like he is, but he is not an old die-hard either. Both would be impressed, but niether would call it free. Free is when your finginers, not your picks, pull on those little sharp limestone edges.

Hooking your picks on Northern Rocky limestone is not free climbing. Its hard. But its not free.

Yes, rubber is an aid as well, but it has been an accepted aid as the free climbing era has grown. This is hooking. Its holding onto your hooks, but its hooking. Hooking is aid.

Sam Lightner, Jr. wrote:Free is when your finginers, not your picks, pull on those little sharp limestone edges. Hooking your picks on Northern Rocky limestone is not free climbing. Its hard. But its not free.

*respectful nodding*

I think we can infer from his OP that Mono concurs. Mark's just an engineer trying out some lawyerly obfuscation and Orwellian evolution.

Darren Mabe wrote: mono, did we drift your thread?

Not at all! This was exactly the discussion I was looking for.

Mark Nelson wrote:similar logic -- wouldn't using shoes with rubber that better adheres to the rock also be considered aid?

I disagree with this frequently used logic. Shoes are an item of clothing that fit in a skin-tight manner, thus mimicking our natural anotomy, and they do not provide a significant mechanical advantage. I agree they provide an advantage over bare feet, but I think just about every reasonable person, climber or not, would see a clear style distinction between shoes and metal hooks with ergonomic handles.

what about if someone climbed "To Bolt" with tools

If someone did that, I would be very sad. This is one of my great fears, that some yahoo will bring their ice tools to the crag and destroy some classic route in order to practice their drytooling in the summer. Sharpened steel concentrates huge amounts of pressure on holds. Even in durable rock, the damage is immediately evident. Obviously hands and rubber-clad feet do damage at times, but the scale of damage is no where near the same.

Monomaniac wrote: I disagree with this frequently used logic. Shoes are an item of clothing that fit in a skin-tight manner, thus mimicking our natural anotomy, and they do not provide a significant mechanical advantage. I agree they provide an advantage over bare feet, but I think just about every reasonable person, climber or not, would see a clear style distinction between shoes and metal hooks with ergonomic handles.

Thanks for that tight rebuttal. I was too lazy to summon it... The other point I'd make is that, contrary to the naked, shoeless, free-soloing "ideal," most of humanity pursues most of its recreation clothed and shoed. Rubber is a refinement of degree, not kind.

mono, Purnell would be a good one to ask on this topic. though i thought M9 was a beretta.

Shawn Mitchell wrote:most of humanity pursues most of its recreation clothed and shoed

Outdoor recreation, sure. Indoor recreation, however...

Kateri, sweet Kateri, not you 2!?!?

Aye lads, we've corrupted another.

Shawn Mitchell wrote: After all, Mark, if he fitted tools with cams, he would still need all that motion, balance and core strength, but it wouldn't be free climbing....

I disagree with this. Yes you would need some endurance but not the strength it takes to stay balanced on tiny edges.

I think the problem with the word "free" and mixed climbing is that they don't belong in the same sentence. I also feel that to call it aid also does not work. I believe that with the grades in mixed being pushed and the amount of routes being put up in mixed fashion we must take a whole new look at what we consider the style to be.

I also don't believe that people should go out and climb aid routes as drytool lines just to say they climbed them "mixed" or "free". A line should have a viable reason to have tools such as ice (excluding drytooling sport for practice).

*** wrote: Outdoor recreation, sure. Indoor recreation, however...

It's fun to see who swings at which soft, floating pitches... :)

BTW, I agree with everything you said, Matt; my point was that tools are different from free, not similar.

Shawn Mitchell wrote: .... trying out some lawyerly obfuscation and Orwellian evolution.

yeah -- try and say that crap again 5 times fast while I come upon you with tools a-blazin.