simul climbing

I will generally follow up the piece with ropeman with another piece OR equalize two stoppers vertically with a long sling and clip the ropeman into that, then clip a quickdraw into the upper biner.

If simulclimbing on easier terrain I usually don't use the ropeman, as I think it is better to climb with the understanding that a fall is bad than trust in a single device/placement.

Of course the worst case scenario is that the second falls and pulls the leader off, and as the rope is speeding through his last piece he takes a factor 2 ( best case) or falls into the last piece of pro, which would probably be a static death fall.

I have heard of guys using a cinch or minitraxion instead of the tibloc/ropeman but havn't tried this. It seems to me that shortfixing is slowly replacing simulclimbing in the world of big wall speedclimbing which is where most of these ideas/inovations get put to the test.

Kevin Stricker wrote:Hey Guy, when you say you see zero slippage does that mean you have actually fallen as a second while simulclimbing using a tibloc? I have seen slippage using them while just jumaring, so I find this comment hard to believe. I have also seen one invert against the rock and start abraiding the rope about 20 feet below me while simulclimbing. Like it was said, without actually setting these guys they tend to slip and a quick fall could easily shread your sheath. Ropemen are not that much heavier, and can be set on the inside of the carabiner similar to a tibloc. They feed just as well if not better all in all a much better device for this situation.... The folded 8 tied through your harness is easy and fast and no need for a steel biner, but the knot does get big on ropes larger than 8mm.

When I said zero slippage, I was referring to the teeth of the Tibloc engaging the rope immediately. Since the Tibloc relies more on the grabbing the sheath than pinching the rope, there is always the possibility of some sheath damage. I am OK with that. I only use the Tiblocs on terrain were the likely hood of a fall by the second is very low. If you second is falling, you should probably reconsider the idea of simul-climbing.

The Ropeman may be a better device for simul-climbing, but I am not going to comment on a device that I have not used.

Michael Schneiter wrote: One trick that we employ that works wonders is to have the second belay with a gri-gri.

Interesting. I'm normally climbing on doubles, but if I plan on simul-climbing on a single rope, I may try this next time. That sounds like a great idea for keeping the slack out of the system. To me, that's the real issue in simul-climbing. I can see how this would be really nice for the second too, if the leader has encountered harder terrain but the second is still on easy slab. I know I've been in that position, and wanting to keep climbing, but knowing it would create dangerous slack for the leader.

Jared Workman wrote: Comments like that make me feel like a real crummy climber.

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to make anyone feel crummy. I think it's cool when anyone is getting out and going fast in the mountains, regardless of the grade.

Kevin Stricker wrote:I will generally follow up the piece with ropeman with another piece OR equalize two stoppers vertically with a long sling and clip the ropeman into that, then clip a quickdraw into the upper biner. If simulclimbing on easier terrain I usually don't use the ropeman, as I think it is better to climb with the understanding that a fall is bad than trust in a single device/placement. Of course the worst case scenario is that the second falls and pulls the leader off, and as the rope is speeding through his last piece he takes a factor 2 ( best case) or falls into the last piece of pro, which would probably be a static death fall. I have heard of guys using a cinch or minitraxion instead of the tibloc/ropeman but havn't tried this. It seems to me that shortfixing is slowly replacing simulclimbing in the world of big wall speedclimbing which is where most of these ideas/inovations get put to the test.

I think you're right about the last part, based on stuff I've read about big wall speed climbs. But simulclimbing is definitely not getting replaced on alpine routes. In fact, it's probably more prevalent then ever.

I've used tiblocs before. I'll probably continue to use them in this application from time to time. I think that if your second doesn't understand that, regardless of whether there's a tibloc or not, you MUST NOT fall, then simulclimbing is a bad idea. The people that I have climbed with have generally been intelligent enough to recognize how bad a simulclimbing fall would be, and thus would tell me if we ever got into territory above their heads (or mine, whichever the case may be). The tibloc is a tiny extra margin of safety when simulclimbing, but by no means makes it sanitized for the masses. It's a legitimate technique though, and anyone who climbs in the mountains who says they won't use it isn't going to get real far, unless doing moderate routes is of no interest to you (and even then, there's always moderate terrain on almost any climb).

I have considered trying the ropeman, and may purchase one and carry one of those and a tibloc. They are heavier though, so on longer approaches they may get left behind.

And, like Jared said, hearing people say they simul on 5.10 terrain is truly humbling.

P.S. the gri gri trick mentioned is brought up in Florine/Wright's speed climbing book I believe. I've never tried it, don't own a gri gri, but I might in the future. Do you coil the extra rope over your shoulder when pulling in slack/moving from ledge to ledge?

builttospill wrote:P.S. the gri gri trick mentioned is brought up in Florine/Wright's speed climbing book I believe. I've never tried it, don't own a gri gri, but I might in the future. Do you coil the extra rope over your shoulder when pulling in slack/moving from ledge to ledge?

I haven't seen Florine's book but I'd like to take a look at it sometime. Usually I just leave it stacked on a ledge. If I'm worried about it snagging on something, then I might coil it over a shoulder or stack it on a sling and clip it to my harness. Otherwise, I find myself pulling up the rope and restacking the extra frequently to prevent snags. It's not a big deal because it's usually a relatively small amount of rope and at that point I'm on a ledge "belaying" at that point anyway so it gives me something to do while I'm not moving upward.

Guy Humphrey wrote: When I said zero slippage, I was referring to the teeth of the Tibloc engaging the rope immediately. Since the Tibloc relies more on the grabbing the sheath than pinching the rope, there is always the possibility of some sheath damage. I am OK with that. I only use the Tiblocs on terrain were the likely hood of a fall by the second is very low. If you second is falling, you should probably reconsider the idea of simul-climbing. The Ropeman may be a better device for simul-climbing, but I am not going to comment on a device that I have not used.

Ok this makes ZERO sense.

You fully admit that the Tibloc "relies more on the(sic) grabbing the sheath than pinching the rope"...what do you suppose grab's the sheath? TEETH Extra long, sharp TEETH...designed extra long and sharp BECAUSE the device does not pinch the rope...this is why it is CRITICAL that you set the device manually before you weight it.

You also say you are ok with some sheath damage in the event of a fall...ARE YOU KIDDING ME????

You also say " I only use Tiblocs on terrain were the likelyhood of a fall by the second is very low". Then why use them at all?

The technique of using an upsode down ascending device while simul climbing was invented by super speedo types...so they could simul climb terrain where the chance's of a fall were higher than they would normally be comfortable with. Think the Nose.

Now early on a lot of them were using Tiblocs. Until People like Hans and a few others either Fell on them or weighted them and they did SEVERE sheath damage. Think a 3 foot section of core revealed.

Now do you know what those folks use? It isn't Tiblocs.

To many people just hear about something and blindly think "hey that's a great idea". Well look closer. It's not and it's been proven in action.

josh

builttospill wrote: It's a legitimate technique though, and anyone who climbs in the mountains who says they won't use it isn't going to get real far, unless doing moderate routes is of no interest to you (and even then, there's always moderate terrain on almost any climb). I have considered trying the ropeman, and may purchase one and carry one of those and a tibloc. They are heavier though, so on longer approaches they may get left behind.

LOL.

Are you serious?
"isn't going to get real far"
People were getting very far, without simuling anything, before you or I were climbing anything.

"they are heavier though"

I'm a lite and fast guy.
What I can tell you is that if you are going to carry either of these device's, to protect simul climbing, and the difference in weight between them is too much....well, you've got other issue's. Maybe you should reconsider simul climbing anything.

josh

J. Thompson wrote: Ok this makes ZERO sense. You fully admit that the Tibloc "relies more on the(sic) grabbing the sheath than pinching the rope"...what do you suppose grab's the sheath? TEETH Extra long, sharp TEETH...designed extra long and sharp BECAUSE the device does not pinch the rope...this is why it is CRITICAL that you set the device manually before you weight it. You also say you are ok with some sheath damage in the event of a fall...ARE YOU KIDDING ME???? You also say " I only use Tiblocs on terrain were the likelyhood of a fall by the second is very low". Then why use them at all? The technique of using an upsode down ascending device while simul climbing was invented by super speedo types...so they could simul climb terrain where the chance's of a fall were higher than they would normally be comfortable with. Think the Nose. Now early on a lot of them were using Tiblocs. Until People like Hans and a few others either Fell on them or weighted them and they did SEVERE sheath damage. Think a 3 foot section of core revealed. Now do you know what those folks use? It isn't Tiblocs. To many people just hear about something and blindly think "hey that's a great idea". Well look closer. It's not and it's been proven in action. josh

There is a big difference between simul-climbing the flatirons and short fixing and jugging off of a tibloc on the Nose. The forces that you second can generate on a low angle slab are much lower than a vertical climb. This debate seems a little pointless with someone is just trying to be a jerk. Flame on...

Oh Guy lets not whine.

If I was trying to be a jerk you would know it.
I'm being stone cold honest...and I'm REALLY sorry your feelings got hurt.
The truth is you are blindly using something that you don't even understand. Plus you concede that you accept a Tibloc could(would) damage your rope.....so maybe you are starting to understand but you don't care.

So the point is this...stop suggesting that people use this very flawed system. Some one could get hurt or worse.

josh

Has anybody seen actual data as to how much force need be applied to a tibloc before the sheath begins to tear? I typically climb on doubles and will place a tibloc for each rope (on separate pieces of gear). Has anybody had problems with the rope feeding through an unattended ropeman?

J. Thompson wrote: LOL. Are you serious? "isn't going to get real far" People were getting very far, without simuling anything, before you or I were climbing anything. "they are heavier though" I'm a lite and fast guy. What I can tell you is that if you are going to carry either of these device's, to protect simul climbing, and the difference in weight between them is too much....well, you've got other issue's. Maybe you should reconsider simul climbing anything. josh

I think you underestimate how long people have been simulclimbing, and how often it happens even if people don't mention it.

You also wrote:
"You also say " I only use Tiblocs on terrain were the likelyhood of a fall by the second is very low". Then why use them at all?"

You may choose not to use tiblocs, or simulclimbing at all, and that's your prerogative. But this argument is--truthfully--pretty stupid. I run stuff out where the likelihood that I'll fall is very low. And yet I still use a rope. Because it might keep me from dying if that 0.01% chance becomes reality.

Similarly, I'll use tiblocs from time to time, because if the very, very unlikely happens, I would prefer potential sheath damage to the alternative. Similarly, sometimes I simulclimb on terrain I would otherwise solo, because I prefer a real chance of death from falling when simulclimbing to almost certain from falling when soloing?

Is that a difficult concept?

Evan Sloane wrote:Has anybody seen actual data as to how much force need be applied to a tibloc before the sheath begins to tear? I typically climb on doubles and will place a tibloc for each rope (on separate pieces of gear). Has anybody had problems with the rope feeding through an unattended ropeman?

No, but I have personal experience with them doing that just ascending the rope. I wouldn't use them for simulclimbing, but would use another ascender like the Ropeman. You could use an old rope and try pulling in hard through a Tibloc to see how it might behave.

builttospill wrote: Is that a difficult concept?

What is difficult to understand is why you would use an inferior and dangerous device when there are other device's that are safer, and do the samething, out there.
I've simuled plenty in my time....well into grades where an ascender is warranted.... I do know a thing or 2 about it.
I know how to move fast in the mountains. I know how, when and why to simul, short fix, solo, and run it out. I know how to look at a long route and decide which technique to use where, and how to switch.
I know this from personal experience and from direct and indirect conversation's with other folks who know. Most importantly I know how to eliminate as much danger from ever increasingly dangerous situations, as possible.
I can back it all up too!
Using a Tibloc to protect the 2nd while Simuling IS DANGEROUS.
Other devices work well and greatly reduce the danger.

I do not underestimate anything. I pay attention and make informed choice's.

josh

J. Thompson wrote: I do not underestimate anything. I pay attention...you should try it. josh

Nope, nothing, ever. Never have, never will.

Edit: Nevermind. I forgot how foolish it is to argue on the internet with people who logic eludes and then respond by telling me to pay better attention. Better attention to what?

builttospill wrote: Nope, nothing, ever. Never have, never will. What, exactly, did I not pay attention to?

The fact that Tibloc are dangerous and that it has been proven.

Instead you tell other's to use them and singer their praise's.

Edited after edited above.....foolish is right. Can't argue with someone who doesn't know what they are talking about.
josh

J. Thompson wrote: The fact that Tibloc are dangerous and that it has been proven. Instead you tell other's to use them and singer their praise's. josh

I'm sorry, what? I didn't quite understand the last sentence.

What I actually wrote:

"The tibloc is a tiny extra margin of safety when simulclimbing, but by no means makes it sanitized for the masses. It's a legitimate technique though, and anyone who climbs in the mountains who says they won't use it isn't going to get real far, unless doing moderate routes is of no interest to you (and even then, there's always moderate terrain on almost any climb).

I have considered trying the ropeman, and may purchase one and carry one of those and a tibloc. They are heavier though, so on longer approaches they may get left behind."

I'm not sure what is wrong with this, except if you read it as "using the tibloc to simulclimb is a legitimate technique." I meant "simulclimbing is a legitimate technique" and tiblocs provide a tiny margin of safety when engaging in that activity. If that was not clear, well....now it is. Nowhere did I "sing their praises." I was very clear about the method in which I employ them, and have been frank about their drawbacks. I recognize that people can make their own decisions with the information available in this thread and elsewhere. Maybe I'm not the one with the reading comprehension problem?

builttospill wrote: I meant "simulclimbing is a legitimate technique" and tiblocs provide a tiny margin of safety when engaging in that activity.

Nope they don't. They actually introduce another way to get someone hurt. Worse, they do it in a way masked by allowing people, who don't know better, to think that it is safer.

If you want to use this technique use a rope man or other device. Even if they are "too heavy"...lol.

If you are on terrain where a fall is not going to happen, don't use any device. Just simul climb, and don't fall.

I'm curious "built" do you even know where the biggest danger lies in Simul climbing....and why?
Quick...no googling.

josh

J. Thompson wrote: Nope they don't. They actually introduce another way to get someone hurt. Worse, they do it in a way masked by allowing people, who don't know better, to think that it is safer. If you want to use this technique use a rope man or other device. Even if they are "too heavy"...lol. If you are on terrain where a fall is not going to happen, don't use any device. Just simul climb, and don't fall. I'm curious "built" do you even know where the biggest danger lies in Simul climbing....and why? Quick...no googling. josh

I didn't know this thread was a quiz for me. Maybe I should quiz you on the correct usage of apostrophes?

I've never seen any definitive studies of simul-climbing done, so I doubt there is a universally accepted "biggest danger." But please feel free to tell me what you think it is, or what people generally accept it to be in your experience.

Landing on terra firma at a rate faster than the descent of the Meleagris gallopavo?

(sorry but I didn't google, I wikied & I should say it's a misnomer, they do indeed handle a glide pretty well)