simul climbing

I have my own ideas on how this works but have never read or seen in writing the "technique". Can someone tell me or point me in the right direction?

Spiro wrote:I have my own ideas on how this works but have never read or seen in writing the "technique". Can someone tell me or point me in the right direction?

dont fall.

:) :)

what sort of details are you looking for? obviously it involves both climbers moving at the same time with no belay. just gear between the two. Pretty hairy stuff if you and your partner are not compitent. We use this most when aid climbing and short fixing to save time. Alpine scenarios are great for this too. But always when on comfortable ground.
What are you planning on doing and maybe I can offer a little more insight but there is not much more to add really :) Short fixing requires more with systems and anchors but just simul can be as simple as keep on climbing.

Here's the simple version:

Put the leader on belay. Leader moves out, placing protection as her/she goes. When the end of the rope is reached, the belayer takes the anchor out and both leader and belayer begin climbing simultaneously. The safety of this system depends on leader and second climbing at roughy equal speeds so there is not a big amount of slack in the system. Additionally, it is imperative that a sufficient number of pieces (at least three good pieces, preferably more) exist between the two. When the leader is close to running out of gear they make an anchor, then put the second on belay and bring them up as normal to recover the gear and resume the process. Lots of variations, but that's the basic principle.

I seem to remember there is also a general rule as to "which climber should lead 1st" the stronger or the weaker one

...and why?

kirra wrote:I seem to remember there is also a general rule as to "which climber goes first" the stronger or the weaker one ?

weaker climber first.

The leader can still fall. the second must NEVER do so.

SAL wrote: weaker climber first. The leader can still fall. the second must NEVER do so.

Agreed. This also plays in nicely when the leader finds ground too technical to continue simul-climbing so stops and builds a belay.

And the leader better not fall....

Agree, and agree...nobody falls when simul climbing. That's rule #1.

ok, that is how i thought it worked. I might want to just make them very long pitchs instead. I am not sure my partner is up to this yet. I was going to do this on whitney, on the easier pitchs.

Spiro wrote:ok, that is how i thought it worked. I might want to just make them very long pitchs instead. I am not sure my partner is up to this yet. I was going to do this on whitney, on the easier pitchs.

Before you set out to do it on a bigger or harder route. Try it local. Do something easy. Even if glacier travel and just place gear. I learned how to do this while alpine climbing at a moderate level where soloing was not quiet what we wanted but moving fast was. eventually it all comes together. Just dont try it out on somthign that could go epic. Falling while simul climbing is no joke. Especially if were talking maybe 3 or 4 pieces of gear holding BOTH of you.
Good luck, be safe and have fun.

Spiro wrote:ok, that is how i thought it worked. I might want to just make them very long pitchs instead. I am not sure my partner is up to this yet. I was going to do this on whitney, on the easier pitchs.

Now that you have identified your intended use, people will likely have even more creative advice on this. I'll lead off by saying that you don't necessarily have to have all the rope out. In fact, in a mountaineering application, it might be preferable to have a shorter gap between you. In this case, the second can coil the rope, throw the excess around his shoulders and then clip in short to the rope with the secure knot of your preference. Just remember that the fall forces will increase as the gap between you gets shorter so don't overdo it. For easy climbing on mountain routes, it's the way to go for speed, and it can be reasonably safer if you think everything through. It's better if you both can see each other at all times too, but this is often hard to manage.

I've also used a Tibloc while simuling to help mitigate a fall by the follower. This has to be used on a piece without using a runner so the rope catches immediately. Second never falls is good in theory but.... Any thoughts on this or similar set-ups?

Evan Sloane wrote:I've also used a Tibloc while simuling to help mitigate a fall by the follower. This has to be used on a piece without using a runner so the rope catches immediately. Second never falls is good in theory but.... Any thoughts on this or similar set-ups?

I have the same thought as before.
The second never falls.
Any sort of force on the rope that can pull the leader off is bad news. I would love to hear more about the tibloc.
Would that be just like a jumar ? In which falling on that would still pull down on the leaders end of the rope?
Just curious to how that works.

A wise dirtbag once taught me a great way to simul-climb:

Take a 60m single half-rope (I use Mammut's 8.6 line) and have one climber tie in the the two ends while the other climber ties into the middle of the rope. Then cast off.

Advantages that I've noticed using this system:

~~There is only 30m (100 ft) between climbers which allows for easy communication
~~You have only an 8.*mm rope so the impact force is reduced on any loaded gear (but I definitely agree with the "don't fall" suggestions)
~~You can take advantage of other normal double-ropes perks (ie clipping protection independently, reduced drag, etc)
~~For long approaches/descents you only have one 8.* rope to lug around

We did Epinephrine in RR in 5 pitches with this system.

Also, if I'm the climber tied into the middle of the rope, I girth-hitch the rope to my harness by taking a bight in the middle of the rope and passing it through where I normally tie in on my harness, over my head, then under my feet (or vice versa), and pull it snug. I'm a big proponent of reducing links in the system because of the old a-chain-is-only-as-strong-as-it's-weakest-link law.

Someone once pointed out to me that it would be very difficult/virtually impossible to escape from the rope. However, I believe that it would be the same degree of difficulty if you were to try to escape from the rope, when loaded, with a normal figure-8 tie in. I could get into that more, but I don't think it's particularly necessary.

A final note: You wanna be particularly confident that neither climber is going to fall with this method, IMO.

--Marc

Spiro - I have firsthand experience with the "don't fall" rule and the stronger climber is second rule.

I was a newbie on Notchtop in RMNP and I didn't have gear placing experience. So my buddy took lead and lo and behold I fell. Right about 50 feet from the ground. I was incredibly lucky that my partner had just placed a piece AND that he heard me scream like a little French school girl. After about a 30ft drop the rope held and I got off with just a finger broke in two places. (4 screws, I've got a cool photo of it)

I think an additional rule is that the team is 'warmed up'. I know we can all climb 5.14s, but even Sharma has to get his head together and warm up his body and mind on something.

The things that go through your mind when the ground is rushing up towards you? Not much..

Neither I nor my partner had ever done any simulclimbing before our recent Red Rock trip, but while we were there it came in handy twice -- on Solar Slab (combining P5 and 6) and Lotta Balls (stretching P3 out to the belay ledge). It was a real time-saver, especially on Solar Slab, in terms of one less belay anchor to set up and take down for the sake of a short pitch.

It didn't feel all that strange or complex to me, either on lead or following, and I felt pretty safe with the technique. Of course, both of us knew that falling (at least for the second) was not an option, so we wouldn't have simulclimbed on anything harder that what we were on.

JL

Marc.
I do the same thing on most alpine routes such as dreamweaver or marthas in RMNP.
My partner and I take an 8.4 and half it up. The advantages are just as you said for communication and less distance. Quick change overs on gear if necessary. also in an alpine enviornment where a rope this thin can get cut pretty easy on an edge it is nice to have doubles. I never thought of the girth hitch on the two hard points of the harness though. Figure up there if you need to get out your most likely cutting the mofo anyways ;)
Only having 30m between us was a major plus especially when pitches have small short cruxes with cruiser climbing between.
Cheers
SAL

Marc Horan wrote: Also, if I'm the climber tied into the middle of the rope, I girth-hitch the rope to my harness by taking a bight in the middle of the rope and passing it through where I normally tie in on my harness, over my head, then under my feet (or vice versa), and pull it snug. I'm a big proponent of reducing links in the system because of the old a-chain-is-only-as-strong-as-it's-weakest-link law.

Marc -- I like the rest of your system, and it's kind of what I've done. However, I wouldn't personally do your tie-in -- for a few of reasons.

1. Girth hitching nylon to nylon is a bad deal, all around. Especially, when they aren't matched materials. Just read the various studies (BD, etc...)
2. I'd be concerned about the effects if just one rope might gets pulled tight, but not the other... (which could happen if you're running as doubles instead of twins). I don't think the girth hitch is really 'designed' to be pulled on just one side, while not the other, but I'd like to hear if anyone knows for sure Seems like that could cause:
3. Possible sliding nylon on nylon (assuming # 2) if the leader ever fell... yikes!
4. This setup with 'two ropes' isn't really redundant, if you're tied into both ropes at just one point. #'s 1-3 are probably bigger things to worry about than the rope failing, but it does kinda go against the logic of redundancy of two ropes!

Eh?

I was going to make the same point about unequal stress on the girth hitch. Better to have a tight figure 8, that works even if one rope is cut.

Avery Nelson wrote:1. Girth hitching nylon to nylon is a bad deal, all around. Especially, when they aren't matched materials. Just read the various studies (BD, etc...)

Interesting point Avery, I've kinda been taught the same thing. Marc, a figure8-ona-bit is a fairly 'safe' tie in knot, no..?

Thanks SAL & everyone for following up on my question, interesting thread ~

Rob, Good point about the rope-redundancy @ tie-in point

'Don't fall' only goes so far. Very critical to safely simul-climbing difficult terrain is the skilled use of a mini-ascender-type device that will keep the second from pulling-off the leader should the second fall. Once rope is pulled-up by the leader, the second, for better or worse, is unable to pull rope down in order to downclimb. Consider either Petzl Tiblocs or the Wild Country Ropeman Mk2. Tiblocs have more aggressive teeth than the Ropeman. You'll have to decide if 'aggressive' is preferable. Get a couple of the devices, maybe three, depending on simul-distances, which may also equate to more rack.

It's prudent to place these just above a crux section so as to minimize rope-stretch should the second fall. Using locking 'biner, place either directly on the sling sewn to ultra-bomber protection or on short q-draw length runner, as opposed to a double-length shoulder sling or 6 foot cordelette as you want as little 'travel' as possible when rope is being pulled up or down. Place as close as possible to rope's natural path to minimize drag. Leader must ensure that she does not fall directly onto ascender by either a) properly rigging with 'runner biner' above ascender or b) placing another protection piece soon.

Practice and think through various scenarios before high-stakes venture...internet advice is cheap and often incomplete esp as it relates to tech stuff like this.

I second not Girth Hitching, it is safer to tie a figure 8 with both strands the middle of the rope is basically the ends. Big knot but much safer.

Also I would recomend ropemen vs tiblocs, as Tiblocs can rotate and get caught against the rock and screw up your rope....been there no fun.

Also prudent use of a grigri by the second really makes the whole process safer as the second is not stuck climbing at the leaders speed, which can really suck if the second is stuck waiting for the leader to place pro while in a tough spot. This way the second can hit easy terrain and "catch up" to the leader, then clip into a piece and belay the leader.