mountainproject.com's impact on guidebooks

This site is all about shared information- just like you learned in school, Sharing is GOOD.

The website for the new guidebook for the Adirondacks has all of the topos available online to download for free. Will people still pay close to $40 for their new book? We shall see. I know I will.

Guidebooks killed my whole family.

Braxton Norwood wrote:Long story short, this person politely asked that I take down my post and refrain from posting similar things about this and nearby areas because he/she is going to write a guidebook and fears these topos will severely impact his/her future sales.

WOW!!! That's like Microsoft asking Mozilla not to release their (beta) version of Firefox because Microsoft is going to produce an updated and enhanced version of Internet Explorer...I guess free markets are a bad thing! I wish I had that topo sketch so I could place it on every public domain I could find.

Brad Doran

Braxton Norwood wrote: Long story short, this person politely asked that I take down my post and refrain from posting similar things about this and nearby areas because he/she is going to write a guidebook and fears these topos will severely impact his/her future sales. I have my own opinions regarding this issue, but I'm curious to hear what everyone else has to say, particularly you guidebook authors.

Let me guess... Was this at a sport crag in Cochise?

Why should anyone be compelled NOT to share info that is indeed thiers?

here's one vote for posting it.

even if mnt. project had all the beta (or even more/better) beta for all the areas i might like to go, i'd still buy the guides cause i like to have them and make notes in them.

definately being able to get topos and whatnot on mnt. project are going to detract from some guidebook sales. but shit...that is life. the world changes.

should TV have not been invented because it would detract from radio (ok...maybe that is a bad example since alot of you probalby hate your TV.....how about a reverso or guide or atc because it would detract from figure 8 sales?) -

hopefully you get my point. things change. being able to get info on teh web for free may be bad for teh guidebook makers, who are probably great climbers, and have done much for teh climbing community, but still.

we could have the same argument over interent gear sellers versus local shops too.

i am personally glad that info is on mnt. project. i still buy guidebooks and look forward to them. they can be quite helpfull, especially if you only print out the topo for the yellow spur, and there are 3 parties already waiting when you arrive. (Ha!)

S

You're obviously not obligated to do any such thing, however...

I'm guessing the hypothetical author in question has invested way more money in bolts putting up good routes in the area than he'll ever make back on the guidebook. Since few or none of us have likely kicked down to support his labors, maybe we ought to honor his wishes as a means of thanks, regardless of whether or not you agree with his concerns about guidebook sales... Especially since he will be doing a public service when he DOES publish, considering the hundreds of new routes that will be in this guide...

I'm certainly buying the guidebook when it comes out regardless of getting any preceding beta, but I think that is beside the point.

-T

Tavis Ricksecker wrote:I'm guessing the hypothetical author in question has invested way more money in bolts putting up good routes in the area than he'll ever make back on the guidebook. Since few or none of us have likely kicked down to support his labors, maybe we ought to honor his wishes as a means of thanks

Bullshit.

I like the fact that he asked politely. Because of that, I would say wait. It is the gentlemanly thing to do.

However, to say that he deserves it because he invested money putting up routes is just stupid. No one has ever placed a bolt for anyone other than themselves (except for maybe a mountain rescue)... and if they think they have, they are kidding themselves. He put up new routes for his ego, I would bet the guidebook is more for his ego than it is for "the climbing community" as well. If he isn't doing it for his ego, then I don't think he would give two shits if his stuff was published on M.P. first. ... but I still do like the fact that he asked politely.

Some good and well thought out responses above.
Let�s face it if you are dirt bagging it you will borrow or copy, what ever it takes. The rest of us would rather have a guide.
I have bought four guides in the past weeks for new to me areas I am now focusing on.
I also have a note book with copies from Mt.Project that has room for my notes and corrections.
I would like to hear from XXX X. and X.XXXXX or any other published guide book author.
I have guide(s) from each and I am planning on buying more guide(s) by each of them.
I have met one author briefly at the crags ,he given me Beta regarding routes in the new book before the book is out.
The other author I would not know from your sister. Actually I do not know if you have a sister. He has emailed me route information no charge and with no guaranty I will buy his book(s).
MY2CENTS

In my opinion, a good guidebook offers a lot more than this website will ever contribute.
I love this site, but my guidebook to Thailand offers way more for the Tailand Experience than the site could ever have. I think the Thailand administrator would agree with this. THis is because most GOOD guidebooks, in my opinion, have far more than just the logistics. They have a flavor. The flavor here is route info... and there is far more to a climbing trip than just climbing info. A good guidebook offer has information that is not conveyed in this format.
What this site is good for is telling a person about newer, relevant info for getting to the routes... and I visit it every day for that.
However, I leave for the Red tomorrow and I have two guidebooks. I read the Red RIver Gorge info on this site, but I am taking the books.

Someone wanted my two cents... thats my two baht.

yup. i don't necessarily want someone to put up a route i would like to do anyway. it ain't community service - its fun and an ego stroke job. no one is forcing you to spend $$$ on bolts and a guidebook sure won't cover those costs.

post it. only reason not to is if it has access issues to be worked out in the new future or if its a place that has been and WILL stay secret for a good long time. if a guidebook is coming out anyway let the cat out of the bag.

I was in Moab last week and Eric Bjornstad told me that they are no longer going to produce the new tower book because so much information is available on the Internet.

This book started out as a comprehensive desert tower tomb. Then the goal became a book of 100 previously unpublished towers. Now it seams it will not exist at all.

Stewart can you confirm any of this?

IMO, it's a pretty silly and BS request by the guidebook author, for a multitude of reasons. You should post what you intended to post.

If ONE topo threatens to make or break their guidebook, then I'm thinkin' the guidebook ain't so hot -- and, the author might consider spending more time making a better quality guidebook that people would want to buy.

Edit:

Another thing to note is that I assume most recent first ascents done in the past few years make it to the internet far before making it to the book. It's all about ease of one staking their claim to FA, instead of the information getting published as mis-translated, lost, or otherwise published incorrectly.

Furthermore, I would suspect that any author of a new guide book that's writing an accurate book in this day and age relies on the internet (in some form) for new-route information. I would love to hear from guide book authors if this isn't true, though. Hypocrite???

That seems goofy Brad, especially since Eric did so much research through mountainproject in the first place. I'd certainly buy a guidebook even if the routes are already here.

I own all the major guide books for my local spot (Red Rocks) and MP is a far more valuable resource than any of them. It's possible, even likely, that my area has a glut of crappy guide books but there are a lot of aspects they just can't cover well. Even the best books can't cover new routes, changing route conditions, etc.

Guide books have their place but online sites like this one are so useful it is ridiculous to try and limit them.

John J. Glime wrote: Bullshit. I like the fact that he asked politely. Because of that, I would say wait. It is the gentlemanly thing to do.

John, You're right, it is the gentlemanly thing to do. However, theoretically speaking, I have an upcoming business trip to the given area and decide to mix business with pleasure and get a couple days of climbing in. So, I look for a guidebook but can't find one because none are published. I then turn to the trusty internet, find Braxton's post and request the given information. Now, do you suppose that Braxton not provide the requested information because at some future date a book is going to be published?

For all of you that said wait, I'd love to see your iPods and check for pirated songs...this request is asinine.

-Brad

I'll never take my laptop up a route......but I may just carry a guidebook in my pack.......
WOW what a ridiculous thread........

Braxton Norwood wrote:Long story short, this person politely asked that I take down my post and refrain from posting similar things about this and nearby areas because he/she is going to write a guidebook and fears these topos will severely impact his/her future sales.

So this guy wants the entire climbing community to wait so he can drive up his book sales.

I think not. Post away, Braxton.

MP seems like a good thing to me. So here's my contribution: I'll be glad to draw and share a detailed topo for any Stronghold route that I'm capable of climbing. And if I'm not strong enough, I'll get my dog to do it.

Climb well everyone and best wishes,
Geir

Jim Amidon wrote:I'll never take my laptop up a route......but I may just carry a guidebook in my pack....... WOW what a ridiculous thread........

I've gotten route information from mountain project via my cell phone when on pitch 5 of a 7 pitch climb, which directed me to the correct finishing pitches. Technology kicks a$$!

Jim Amidon wrote:I'll never take my laptop up a route......

Jim, clearly you're behind the times:

Unofficial Mountain Project climbing guide for your cell phone

... and did you take Mountain Project (AKA your 'laptop') with you on your climbing trip??? LOLOLOL