.

Rick Shull- "Iam curious about what the current Access Fund policy is on the matter."

This may seem a bit vague, however it is vague for good reasons:
-1. This issue is land manger dependent
-2. Local issues require local solutions. ie. fixed hardware review boards.

accessfund.org/pdf/memhandb…

page 14, "bolting policies"

Adding my humble opinion here...

Perma-draws/chains are acceptable in some areas on the steep stuff as a matter of practicality and safety. Cleaning some routes on the descent is dangerous, and sometimes not possible. "Booty" theives complicate this. Many times a full rack of chains isn't required because a lone "cleaner" biner appropriately placed to protect the climber cleaning the lower portion of the route can be used, but they inevitably get taken. I myself have left numerous cleaner biners only to have them removed by someone.

I had to bail this weekend off the River Wall in Clear Creek due to a storm, left 14 draws on the wall. Is this booty? I went back yesterday and retreived them, fortunately they were on a route not to accessible to those who would feel they were theirs for the taking. It disappoints me to think someone would view that as booty.

I guess my line about "Deep Thoughts with Jack Handy" wasn't enough to convey my sarcasm.

I'll try to be more obvious next time.

Brad Brandewie wrote:I guess my line about "Deep Thoughts with Jack Handy" wasn't enough to convey my sarcasm. I'll try to be more obvious next time.

Sorry, I'm a bit slow. It didn't seem like much of a stretch from what some people are saying on here, and they're being serious I'm pretty sure.

Psssst. Wanna know where to get some booty? I know some areas around vegas where some "sporto's" actually left the hangers on the bolts! and chains w/biners too! Damn, there are HUNDREDS of them things "left behind" by some lazy bastards!

I was going to post up a crag I've been climbing at lately, but it seems kind of stupid to now. It only takes one asshole to ruin a nice thing, and I'd feel like an idiot if people had their draws and/or stashed gear stolen because I directed a bunch of people on the internet to a previously little known crag.

caughtinside wrote: My bad. I usually rely on the comment being what's known as 'funny' to pick up on sarcasm.

Hah, ditto.

I've had buddies "share" about a new crag only to have 40-50 draws stripped off projects overnight. What a nice way to say "thanks for all the work cleaning and bolting"!

caughtinside wrote: My bad. I usually rely on the comment being what's known as 'funny' to pick up on sarcasm.

Then you must miss a lot of the sarcasm in the world.

This is pretty rich - a bunch of crotchety trad climbers discussing the nuances of high-end sport climbing. Ha Ha

How funny would it be if there were a pack of sportos arguing the relative merits of ground up lead bolting from free stances vs hooks.

All I'm gonna say is when a biner has been hanging out so long that the sun facing side of the biner's anodized color has faded, it might be time to take that down and try a new project. Maybe without chipping the shit out of it this time. There are limestone caves in the Las Vegas area that do indeed look like climbing gyms in every sense, I'm just waiting for the bolt on holds.

Another thing I'd like to add, just because chipping and permadrawing a crag have become the norm should that justify continuing to do this? It seems like a shitty excuse to me.

If you do that, you are stealing. Say whatever you need to to justify it, but you are taking stuff that isn't yours, that YOU KNOW is not "abandoned" - it's stealing.

If their presence ruins your wilderness experience right next to the freeway there, you should find out who the draws belong to and talk to them about it, but taking them is stealing.

And what are you doing at the VRG this time of year?

If I leave a bunch of cams in an IC crack..
Any different than leaving draws on an overhang?
Any different than leaving ice screws & screamers in Ouray?
Any different than leaving ropes fixed on a mountain?

Yes, why? because.

(oh - Ouray, man we're getting closer!!!!)

I'll repeat myself for the thick-skulled: "Say whatever you need to to justify it, but you are taking stuff that isn't yours, that YOU KNOW is not "abandoned" - it's stealing."

If you find a wallet we all know the "right" thing to do is find the person and return it. Then there are others who grab the cash and throw the wallet in the trash.

Leaving gear hanging semi-permanently on any kind of rock is a sorry state of affairs. Hopefully the land managers don't eventually flip and decide to close the area to climbing. I know I would.

We have to think about the environment here - this is another unifying issue shared by sport and trad alike.

I am partial to both traditional and sport climbing, yet I understand the necessity to leave draws in situ on some cliffs. Case in point, The Waimea Wall, Monsters of the Id Crag, and some sections of Orange Crush at Rumney. If you've ever climbed there you'd understand the need for such a practice, as cleaning a route would be next to impossible, and very unsafe for the climbers. Now, whether or not ALL hard sport climbs require this practice is debatable. If a 13C is on a dead vertical wall, then there is no need to leave draws permanently in place, only temporarily if your intentions are to project said route.

Recently, there was quite a tidal wave of opposition regarding perma- draws at Rumney. The ladder was removed from Waimea (access to the E-Ticket Ledge), and threats were made about cleaning every draw on the cliff (I'd sit on a lawn chair at the base with a cooler-full of beverages just to see that act!). The Rumney Climbers Coalition, along with many members of the New Hampshire climbing community had a meeting to discuss this rift amongst their clan. An agreement was reached that said it was appropriate and acceptable to leave draws on routes that were 5.12 and harder.

The Rumney decision is evidence that such a dichotomy can exist even within an ethically staunch state such as New Hampshire (e.g. bolts getting chopped on Cathedral Ledge).

Hey Killis,
Great job protecting our access to the VRG...I am sure that stealing a bunch of first clip draws is decreasing the climbing impact in this sensitive area significantly. After all everyone who's draws you stole are all sponsored, so it's no big deal...just taking back from the MAN. I guess you have taken it a few too many times from the Man anyways right?

I am guessing you also brought your spray bottle up there to wash off some chalk and a shovel to work on the trail right? Boy you sure sound like a good Samaritan, too bad we don't have more of your type around here on the Front Range.

Just keep telling yourself that you are stealing for the common good of the climbing community....You know what Karma is right?

Permadraws are never okay.
Take you gear home with you, or you are donating it to anybody with a stick clip.
Keep in mind this kind of thing has affected acess in other crags.

I would say it is only appropriate on routes that are severely overhung or otherwise difficult to clean. Also it depends on the other user groups in the area and how popular it is to them. If the access is sensitive, say private land or popular with groups such as hikers or birdwatchers, I'd say the draws are not appropriate.

Whether you are for fixed draws or not, I don't think anyone can say they look good. Hell I'm an avid sport climber and I personally think bolts look terrible.

An example of nessacary but terrible looking that comes to mind for me is The Bunkers at Foster Falls. I love the ease of clipping and not having to retrieve draws afterwards, but man it sure looks bad.

The Larry wrote:How about fixed ropes? rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/fo…;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;guest=27071524

Before this thing blows up all over MP.com I'll let you all know that it's a (very sophisticated) troll. And I'm the only idiot that got caught up in it.

--Marc