The attitude of some guides!

So as a climber we have all had run a in or two with guides. For the most part I have not had to terrible of experiences with them. Although I have heard some stories.

Well this weekend while climbing in Ouray up in the Camp Bird Road area I had a run in with IMG guides. Me and a friend (who is a rock guide) were climbing Slip Sliding Away. As we finished we started to walk around to see what we would do next. We quickly noticed that the place had filled up and there were people on most everything. So we started to talk with folks to see when they would be done. We soon realized that 2/3rds of the people there were with IMG and were all swapping topropes. I counted around 15 clients. I then asked the different guides when they would be done. I was told that they were going to be rotating their clients through the different climbs but that if they got tired we could jump on a route. I was also then told go jump on something else and check back with us. I was shocked. I told them that I did not think that was right and decided to move on and out of the area.

My climbing partner is a rock guide here in New Mexico and we started to discuss what is the proper way to guide and not affect fellow climbers. Both of us felt that this was poor behavior and that they should have been in the ice park since they were not teaching leading skills or sharing routes (it seems like that has become the norm in the park).

What would you have done? Is this type of behavior starting to be accepted? I just could not believe how rude they were and how they acted like they owned the area. I have had this happen a few times but it just seems to be getting worse. Have guides forgotten there routes as climbers and what that means as far as respecting fellow climbers?

Me and my buddy were climing in the school area and this guide comes by and noticed that the party to the right of us is leading but did not leave anything at the anchors at top to signify that there was someone on the route. So he new the rules. We climed a couple of routes and when we were done climbing every route we moved on and let the other parties hop on the routes. The whole time we seemed to move to the routes right next to this guy and after a while of talking to him we realized that this guy thought he was king of the whole ice park. so the last route we get on (we belay from the top when TRing so we dont have to dodge the falling ice) we go to throw the rope and yell "ROPE...ROPE" and you can see the people he is guiding down there and they say nothing so we toss the rope, the second the rope touches the ice we hear a climber yell at us that he is climbing here. so we think he is leading, after a little bit he comes up and we ask him what route he is on and he is on the same route. so I asked if he knew the rules for leading, he made it clear that he was soloing. What I wanna know is if you have to leave stuff at the anchors for leading why would you not leave stuff at the anchors for soloing.

You don't have to if you are a guide! ;)

You know I do a lot of soloing in the School Room and I always leave an anchor setup up top if I solo. The same applies for leading. The guide should have done the same as what he was telling you about leading.

Claim the anchor first. Which of course some just don't want to claim the anchor and will just climb; then I'm the asshole for dropping a rope after building the anchor -- or building an anchor & then leading; some will just take my pre-made anchor and toss a rope on it anyway, even though I pulled mine so I could lead up.

Here's one, we setup an anchor on one route and use it; then everyone else that has an anchor wants to switch off. So we all switch off between about 8-10 independent groups of people. Later in the day, I get gigged for not climbing on my rope when we rotate back to our original line. Technically, I'm in the wrong based on the rules; but I have no problem letting others use the anchor & rope.

Should I just not switch off and pull the anchor which of course no-one else will pull their anchor after the mandatory 3 hour rule.

So, am I the dick or not? I mean everyone tries to cooperate, but what can you do? I can't make everyone happy and plan to climb in the Park for all day.

What is the best way to deal with it? Have the sheriff's deputies all around the canyon?

Ouray can be a great place, but I'm ready to go elsewhere. It's just getting too crowded to deal with the mental aspects & reality of others coming down while climbing.

One of the biggest problems with the Park could be helped by signage in the group areas to the effect that: you cannot climb a route unless you have the anchor first.

Mark Nelson wrote:Ouray can be a great place, but I'm ready to go elsewhere. It's just getting too crowded to deal with the mental aspects & reality of others coming down while climbing.

I hear you on this. Although after our run in with IMG we went to the park and encountered no one in the lead only area. Gotta love that.

Guides soloing in front of their newbie clients is almost never a good idea, no matter where.

I'd just stay out of the Schoolroom altogether and climb near the upper bridge or Five Fingers area. Then go outside the park and hit something there. The more convenient the toprope setups, the more likely guided groups will gravitate there.

When I took my AMGA course there was a whole lecture on guiding ethics.
These included...

If recreational climbers come and want to lead something you are toproping you automatically give it up. Leading always takes precident.

You should take your clients to lesser known, less star climbs, because most of the time new climbers don't know the difference.

Recreational climbers always have the right away.

I'm almost sure that some of these guiding ethics are written into their curriculum, it's too bad others don't follow it.

I'm always angry when there is a swarm of topropers led by unexperience, uncertified guides on the first pitch of popular multipitch climbs at my local crag.

JacobD wrote:When I took my AMGA course there was a whole lecture on guiding ethics. These included... If recreational climbers come and want to lead something you are toproping you automatically give it up. Leading always takes precident.

I wish this was the case but I have never seen it. I also could care less about the park because I gave up on that place long ago. I hope that the guides stay in the park and I think that they should. Now they should still behave accordingly.

I also have NEVER had a guide/guided group yield to me. I HAVE had a guide (whose employer runs guide-training courses under franchise from AMGA) walk RIGHT past me and a partner who were gearing up to start leading her clients up a route in the Front Range.

I noticed this year that the San Juan Mountain Guides guides have also taken to setting up two adjacent routes with the same toprope (in a fairly bogus anchor set up) for one pair of climbers thus occupying two routes only one of which they can climb at a time - also in violation of the rules.

The guiding problem with the Ice Park will only get worse until and unless lots of people like us complain to the Ice Park management (maybe a note that you'd like to renew your membership next year but it's just not worth it/fun to climb in the Park anymore because of all the inconsiderate guides), to San Juan mountain guides who are the "master" permit holder and parcel out the guiding days to other services, and any cognizant government agencies (does the Forest Service own any of the land?). I bet a note to the Ouray Chamber of Commerce to the effect that unless OIPI (Ouray Ice Park Inc.) gets the guide situation under control that you and your buddies (be specific) will not be down there as much next year) - make sure to note how much money you've spent in town over the past x years and how long you've been an ice park member.

B*tching about it on boards like this will do no good, other than to encourage others to complain too. Write to those who run the show, make it clear how much you have benefitted the town and make it clear that you won't in the future if things aren't fixed.

I don't believe a recreational climber has any more right than a guide and client to be on a route. We all have equal rights to the resource.

The issue here is about the size of the group and managing it's impact. Some people do it better at it than others.

Did you talk to the lead guide in charge?

I agree with John about equal rights to be on routes. I've experienced the same crowding problem at Hidden Falls in RMNP on a weekend when a guided party is there.

Even cragging requires an alpine start now and then...

I tend to agree with John on this. I think the size of the group is the main consideration not so much whether the group is a guided one or whether it is a class of newbies. Being a guide myself I feel I have a responsibility to the community of climbers, particularity where I am home-based, to not tie-up certain climbs or areas which have the more popular routes where visiting climbers might choose to be. There are plenty of routes that offer enough opportunities for teaching that are obscure and out of the way so as not to crowd-out other climbers. I feel like for teaching puposes I NEVER need to go to popular routes for instruction purposes. Unfortunately, I myself have seen enough of this inconsiderate behavior among new guides to agree that it is a concern, especially in the Ice Park and needs to be addressed by the people who run that concession.

To be fair here the problem is not always with the guides. Some of the guides just are not cognizant of their behavior and do think they have a higher priority than recreational climbers and these guides need to be given a class in appropriate and professional behavior by their superiors. Some of their superiors feel the same way. Especially in the case of RMI and IMG guides. It has been my experience that many of them are new to climbing, have just gained their AMGA certification only as a means to make a living and they just don't understand climbing etiquette..................someone above them needs to explain this very common-sense behavior to them or they need to be told by you, the recreational climber. If that does't work then just report them in writing to the San Juan Guides office in Ouray.

This might seem silly but I made up a couple of laminated signs that state "this route occupied". This is because even when I have left my gear at the top of a route some climbers prefer to ignore the obvious. I leave it at the top anchors and I haven't had a problem since.

Bottom line is that the San Juan guides need to inforce the rules when it comes to who they give climbing permits to and if any group or guide does not follow those rules they have their permit revoked for that season. Then maybe we'd see better, more professional behavior in the park.

Sorry you had such a bad experience at the hands of "professionals". Not all guides are that way. Most o us try to do the right thing.

Jack Roberts

Jack,

Well said. I think your post represents part of what makes a good guide and why so many of us in the community have a great deal of respect for you.

John McNamee wrote:I don't believe a recreational climber has any more right than a guide and client to be on a route. We all have equal rights to the resource. The issue here is about the size of the group and managing it's impact. Some people do it better at it than others. Did you talk to the lead guide in charge?

I agree with you on this and I believe that I stated something about it on my first post. We all have equal right. In my situation I did speak to the lead guide and he was nice as far as how he presented his irrational answer.

I was upset on the behavior that I saw this weekend so I had also sent an email to IMG's head office to let them know what I saw. As I mentioned above I was climbing with a friend who is a rock guide and he felt that maybe they were just not that aware of proper etiquette and that we should just let there superiors know.

I did get a response back from George Dunn who handles the Ouray ice guides for IMG and he was very positive and willing to look there policy over. I had previously had the email in my post but George wanted me to know that he did not want it posted. Sorry George for posting it here without asking you. It was a positive email.

When I spoke with the guides at the skylight area they did not make it clear that they were not all together. So there was some misunderstanding on my side. At the same time it was good to see that George Dunn felt that it was important to readdress their policy.

I think Jack is right about letting people know what we see. The reason I posted this topic was to get ideas from different people on how they handle these situations and to get people thinking about holding people responsible for their actions. I really wish all guides had Jack's attitude.

Kevin Craig wrote:B*tching about it on boards like this will do no good, other than to encourage others to complain too. Write to those who run the show, make it clear how much you have benefitted the town and make it clear that you won't in the future if things aren't fixed.

I think you have a lot of good points in the first part of your post. I also think you have a good suggestion in contacting the Chamber of Commerce. I also thinks it's pretty ironic that you gave a good suggestion to help the OP out with their problem, and then went on to say that "Bitching about it...will do no good..."

It looks like you contradicted yourself.

--Marc

I really thought I'd leave this post alone but.......

As far as profit is concerned it's a mute point, when you add in the cost of permits, insurance, guides meager wage and administration costs, it's no wonder guides barely make enough money to eat.
Guide service operators make just enough to stay in business.

Is Ouray overwhelmed with guides and clients, yes.....

I have opinions about the ice park, (and the permit holders) I'll keep to myself, but it is a great safe place to introduce beginners to ice climbing.

As a guide, yes, you should always yield to the climbing public. Guiding is one of the lowest paying, highest stress, physically and mentally challenging jobs there is......

Guides do the work for the gratification of seeing someone succeed on something they would not do on their own. In a controlled as safe environment a guide can offer.

Kudo's to George for replying to the letter and hopefully knowing it would be posted here, got any openings George ????

The Ice Park as the locals call it is "a unique asset for the town" it does need to be managed better by the guide services and more communication between the public and guides should and would only help everyone.

Hey there is tons of ice elsewhere in Colorado, you may have to hike to get to it, but isn't that part of ice climbing.........

Marc Horan wrote: I also thinks it's pretty ironic that you gave a good suggestion to help the OP out with their problem, and then went on to say that "Bitching about it...will do no good..." It looks like you contradicted yourself. --Marc

OK, I should have said "JUST b*tching about it here..." Picky picky.

On a different topic, well said Jack.

I should make it clear that I am in no way anti-guide. Some of my best friends are guides ;^) and I have benefited enormously from their help throughout my climbing career. Perhaps that's why I react so negatively when I see guides behaving badly as it taints the entire profession.

Overall though, I agree that the Park needs to get its arms around the guided/large group problem. It will impact me and some of my friends I'm sure, but it's got to be done before we have an ice axe attack like the one that ruined Boulder Canyon. =8^O

Kevin Craig wrote:Picky picky.

I was just pointing out how your post appeared. I wasn't trying to be picky; it really appeared to be contradictory to me.

No offense intended.

--Marc

Lets see, you hope to hit areas around the ice park and not be surrounded by newbies climbing? Guided or unguided its irrelevant, the place is a mad house - even weekdays are becoming a mess. The way I see it, better that guides are in the park with these folks than romping around in the backcountry. Your anti-guide attitude is adolescent...if you had issues while climbing you should have communicated clearly enough to be understood by the guides present. Kudos to the guides for their hard work and patience and their willingness to reevaluate their own policies based on your inability to cope. Next time stay with your 'guide friend' in new mexico and stop over-crowding our ice to begin with.