In defense of projects.

JasonH wrote:I am always rehearsing moves in my mind (often times with hand movements in awkward social places), paying attention to what I eat, and training with specific results in mind. I am truly trying to raise myself to the level of the climb. I love the self-doubt and thinking I am in over my head, but trying anyways, until i can figure something out.

Jason, I think you're the master of getting in over your head and getting out in one piece. You are so right about how projects get you excited to improve in other areas too, like diet and all around fitness. It's like the training montages in Rocky movies, although I draw the lines at raw eggs, or the part of Lyn Hill's video when she's sprinting through El Cap meadow in a sports bra. So cool.

Interesting thread. I remember a guy named Todd that took a lot of crap for projecting a route at Hueco. I spent some time there with him before it got redpointed and came away super motivated to climb hard. I picked a blank face on the back side of Chimney Rock on Mt. Lemmon AZ. Getting mentally prepared to work really hard for many days I got it first try. Bob D. has a picture of himself on the 2nd ascent. That experience taught me that what I believe I can do and what I can are not the same.

First I suggest that if you haven't done it give it a try you might be surprised at what you learn. I love to onsight routes and will try to do so every time. Some people are not good at onsights. I think lots of experience on all types of climb really help as well as really wanting the OS. I love to project routes too. 19 attempts is the most I have ever taken to send a route. I am not sure how many tries qualify for a project. The fact that a climb can be impossible today but climbable later is really interesting to me. I have found that as I spend more time on a route I learn subtle things that make a huge difference when it come to redpointing them. One route that took me over 15 tries felt like it was two number grades easier the day I redpointed it. Two # grades! How wild is that. That particular route was 110 feet long and I had all the hand and more importantly footholds memorized. During the week I would be at a friends pool and I would tread water and visualize all the moves. It was like meditation. 4 of my 5 projects were sent when I figured there was no way I would succeed. I assume that thinking I would fail allowed me to relax enough to climb well. I also find that working routes near my limit makes me climb the lower grades more easily and makes onsighting more likely too. Sorry to go on so long but one last tip. When I have a project as I do now, I make sure there are routes my buddies want to do in that area or I start drilling new ones that will keep them interested.

As Eric stated this is an interesting thread. Bobby D. & Eric R. were both mentors of sorts to me (not to date myself). What is cool here is that this topic has come up every several years through all of my climbing career.

Let's think back to 1961 when John Gill soled the "Direct North Face of the Thimble". John climbed up and down to the double jug at mid route a number of times before committing to the upper half of the route. The upper half of the route was essentially an on sight for Gill. The crux of the route was in the upper half. Gill's efforts prior to his successful ascent possibly constitute the first serious project route in modern rock climbing history in the U.S.A.

Rock climbing is many different things to many different people. He who has the most fun on any given day is the clearcut winner. Too me what is really important is that I do my best and have fun when climbing whether it be a new or an existing route. For me the onsight always produces the greatest delight. Projects can be very gratifying likewise.

From my perspective this topic will continue to resurrect itself in the future. There is no real answer other than to be true to yourself. Allow yourself to let gravity show you how to hang yourself to allow passage. Have fun out there, do your best and be safe.

When I think of the attitude required for hard projects, I think of Howard Roark from Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead. Here is a guy who is completely sure of his convictions. He knows what he wants to do and he knows the steps he will take to complete his goal. Despite an array of characters telling him that his ideas are wrong or that his actions are inappropriate, he stays true to what he believes. His steadfast confidence is his strength. And most importantly, his confidence is not shaken by what others might be thinking or saying.

To me, this is the perfect attitude when dealing with a project. Be sure of your desire to climb on that hard route. Don't let others sway you, even though their sole motivation may be to bring you down to their level. Their level is marked with indecision and a lack of confidence. Rise above all their garbage and keep getting on that route.

OK, I'll bite...at least to stir the pot a bit.

Two climbers with similar abilities and experience spend the summer working on increasing their climbing ability, both have previously RP'ed a 5.12c. One climber decides to get on a 5.13a and proceeds to spend the rest of the summer on this route. He warms up on the same climbs and tries his route 4-5 times per weekend. The other climber sets out to increase his experience and climbs six .12b's, two .12c's, and a .12d in the same amount of time it took for climber A to finally redpoint his project after 40 attempts.

Question is, at the end of the summer who is the better climber? If they both now decided to jump on another .13a, which climber do you think would be the first to succeed?

I didn't get to project this climb as I was only there for one day...but I went with a good friend of mine to Shag Crag in Maine and he told me to go up and lead Ginseng - a 5.12c overhanging granite route. I thought that there was no way I was going to even get off the ground having never even redpointed anything harder than 11b and I had only been on one 12 in my life. The climb has huge powerful moves I'd never encountered before on a route.

With his encouragement I made every move on the route, even though I did hang on every bolt. I didn't come close to sending it, but the fact that I was able to do the moves and made it to the top completely changed my climbing. I could see if I came back with a bit more strength a few more times it would go down. All the sudden 5.11 moves seemed easy in comparison and there was a new view that I could climb wayyyyyy harder than I was attempting at the time.

My friend had a similar experience at that cliff. He had worked a 13b there for a ton of tries and finally one day after 1 hanging the route dozens of times...he let out a huge roar and stuck the crux hold. After that 13's have been falling all of the place and he said projecting that route until he broke through made all the difference.

So perhaps to answer the last question - it could be different for everyone and also might change at certain times in your climbing career. Maybe you just need a good solid base of routes or maybe you've hit a plateau and need a project to propel you to the next level.

good thought, Kevin. i like the pot stirred. I think i may put a whisk in as well.

redpointing, projecting, working routes, etc. give you tools to onsight harder routes. Sport helps trad, trad helps sport, bouldering helps both, etc. its all good. by the way, good posts, Kayte.

also amkes me think of what buddy of mine told me,

"onsighting is thinking, redpointing is remembering"

thats why most climbers' highest onsight grades are lower than their redpoint grades. if they are not, you need to try harder.

all i know is, when I RP Interstellar, i will be sure to let KC know :)

Darren Mabe wrote:all i know is, when I RP Interstellar, i will be sure to let KC know :)

I'll have a beer and a hand-shake waiting for you when you send.

nice! youre the man.

Kevin Stricker wrote: Question is, at the end of the summer who is the better climber? If they both now decided to jump on another .13a, which climber do you think would be the first to succeed?

The proudest sends I have came when I knew that I could do it. Whether you reach that point by projecting a particular grade or biulding a solid base of lower grades, I think the end result needs to be mental as much or even more than physical.

Kevin Stricker wrote: Question is, at the end of the summer who is the better climber? If they both now decided to jump on another .13a, which climber do you think would be the first to succeed?

I think the climber who mentally has the 13a breakthrough is going to succeed on the next 13a more quickly than the progressing climber. Just my opinion, but this train of thought can go straight down or up through the grades. Whenever breaking through to the next "number" grade, a big mental breakthrough is usually required, more so than getting to the next "letter" grade. Going from 12c to 12d is great, but breaking through from 12d to 13a can rattle some folks brain with barriers that can be hard to get around. Like I said, this can be the same for 10d to 11a or from 13d to 14a or whatever. I sorta also think lots of people tend to not want to get their 12a's 13a's and so on downgraded, so the routes can be more stout and defined than mid-letter graded routes(if that makes any sense).

Whatever the answer, one of the better questions I've heard on this forum Kevin.

Hank,
I agree that the mental barriers are usually the toughest to break in climbing. I would tend to think though that if you climb a .13a in 40 tries, that most likely you are going to take around that many to get your next .13a because that is the paradym you have created for yourself. On the other hand if you just sent nine .12's and say your .12d took 10 tries you are going to go into it thinking that .13a is going to take you 20 you will most likely succeed in around 20 tries.

Anyways that is just my interpretation...I think the big downfall some people face when projecting is they back themselves into a corner and only work on a single route for months on end. I think the pitfall is that they tend to stagnate as climbers, their body stops adapting and it becomes a purely mental game after a certain point. Also if you tend to do the same warm up and fail on the same route over and over after a while it really effects your psyche, you expect to fail after a while.

Personally I like having projects more than I like completing them. Generally after sending something that has taken me a lot of effort I feel a bit empty, the send means less than the project did. But that is just me..I think that the most important thing in climbing is to always persue your passion...and if that means working routes then GO FOR IT! Just don't loose focus on the most important thing...Having fun.

Sorry to hear about that, Ken. Damn.

Betsy and Ken, our thoughts are with you.

Thanks, folks. They are moving Betsy out of quarantine tomorrow morning, but they have to do another spinal tap to release some of the pressure from her brain. The cultures should be ready by morning and then we'll know if it's bacterial or viral meningitis. Hopefully it's only viral, although they are treating it as the former, to be on the safe side. She is in a lot of pain, although her fever has subsided and she is stable.

It has been a scary two days.

Wow Ken, puts things in perspective. We are all sending our most positive thoughts to you and yours.

Ken, please give Betsy a big hug for me. I know her from Seven and see her often. Tell her that Dane from Tahona wishes her the best.

Thank you, Scott and Dane. I'm headed over to the hospital in a few minutes. I'll make sure that I tell her.

Best wishes, Ken & Betsy.

John,

If it takes you a million tries to send a 13c or d, and you only try it once a week, it will take 19,230 years to send. So I would suggest a 13a.

Seriously though, I would go up one letter grade at a time (so pick a 13a for your 1st proj). The experience you gain along the way will be valuable, and I think you will enjoy it a lot more. If you pick a route that's too easy, the worst thing that can happen is that you send it really fast.

Monomaniac wrote:If you pick a route that's too easy, the worst thing that can happen is that you send it really fast.

That's just so fulfilling to hear. The point is not to send (initially) the point is to work. I guess it's like that touchy-feely cliche: it's not about the destination, it's about the journey. I would take it a step farther from the cliche and say that it's about trying hard for trying hard's sake.

John, 13a sounds super doable for you. I think though that you should project whichever route you find more inspiring, no matter what the grade. If you are connected to the route on an aesthetic level, then I think the grade is irrelevant.

Best of luck Ken. You've got a lot of people who care around here.