Don't crowd me at the crag...

SAL wrote: Ken... Did I ever tell you that you have beautifull eyes :-) B-E-A-utifull!!!

Yeah, that doesn't surprise me. Bob D. tells me that I look like a metrosexual, and then he tries to hug me. He says it's the Italian in him, but I'm beginning to wonder.

Ken Cangi wrote: Yeah, that doesn't surprise me. Bob D. tells me that I look like a metrosexual, and then he tries to hug me. He says it's the Italian in him, but I'm beginning to wonder.

Yeah that Bob D...

I think those nice ladies at shelf had the secret beta and BIG TIME just couldnt take it. I love climbing with woman around. Mouthy or not :)

Big Time wrote:It was a beautiful fall day at Shelf Road. My partner and I were working a climb at the upper limits of our abilities. The peace and tranquility of the location allowed us to focus on the task at hand. Times like these represent why I love the art of climbing rock. Then everything changed. Two women decided to get on the 5.10d directly to our left. Their small talk took away from the moment I was enjoying so thoroughly. Five minutes later another group got on the 5.11b to our right. Is it rude to climb next to another party? Shelf Road has hundreds of routes in the 5.10-5.11 range. These two sets of climbers could have easily found other routes to climb. Do they not realize how their actions affect other climbers? Am I unique in my desire to have space when I climb? There will inevitably be times when having space is not an option. This was not one of those times. I would like the climbing community to consider being more respectful of other climbers desire for space.

That's life.
Love it or leave it.

hey big time- some of us can understand. there was a time when you could go to places like, say, Indian Creek and not have to see anyone at all. then all the folks in CO decided they too wanted to climb the sweetest cracks in the world, so they started taking their lycra off in favor of carhardts and started swarming the place. now you go there and you might think you were IN CO with all the green plates there.

I used to think the same way when I actually hiked a while to get to a small crag and someone showed up and threw their shit all over the place right next to mine. never felt that way at a sport cliff though, it is spurt climbing.

Now I climb at the Gunks.......theres a few people that go there.

When I'm heading to a specific area or climb my plan's change really quik if a group is on or near a climb I was going to do! Then of course personal space to me is 3 Ft. at least when I'm talking to someone. It's annoying when someone you don't even know that has to get 1 foot away from your face to talk to you. Climbing to me is about getting away from the everyday crowds and I guess this is why I Hate climbing indoor's. Thankfully we don't experience many crowded area's here in S. Arizona, even near the road.

Where was this route that you were projecting? You are looking for solitude in the wrong place if you hit Sand Gulch, Cactus, Spiney Ridge or the Bank. If you take the time to walk another 5 minutes past Spiney, the Gym is almost always deserted and 5 minutes past the Bank sits the wall with #1 Super Guy and some other fantastic climbs. If you REALLY want to be alone, go find the North End. Amazing climbing (although getting a little cold at this time of the year) and few people ever go there. If you are not willing to find the the quieter areas of Shelf (very little effort really...) you can not complain.

The question I have posed is this: Is it more enjoyable when people spread out at the crag?" I believe the obvious answer is "Yes". I have no problem climbing in the same area as other people. I understand that Shelf Road is a popular climbing destination. But even so, if there are lots of open climbs that are not directly next to another climbing party; why not climb those?

Did you tell them to be quiet or to move? If you didn't then you obviously weren't upset enough to do anything about it. So....whining about it on the internet makes you a....a....a... I can't think of the word for it can someone help me out with the word?

I'd go with chump.

Luckily I don't worry too much about it...in S AZ I'm always surprised how EMPTY the crags are. Even the good ones.

But when it does happen, it all depends on what kind of people you're talking about. Some people are quiet and/or interesting, some people are knobs. I was belaying a partner on his project recently and he was going for the redpoint and some knob come up loudly demanding beta on all the routes in the area. I said "going for the redpoint here...STFU please !". He acted like _I_ was the asshole.

A variation on this theme is beta-shouters. Another STFU moment.

Big Time wrote: if there are lots of open climbs that are not directly next to another climbing party; why not climb those?

Why does the Sun rise in the East, and not the West? Why can't I get that sweet but pungent odor out of my rock shoes? Why does Bob D. keep trying to hug me?

Instead of starting a thread that you must have known would bring you nothing but ridicule, why didn't you just ask the women why they chose to climb so close to you? Maybe that was too obvious a solution. Or maybe it's what I suspected in the first place - that you are trolling and want to see how long you can keep this thread alive.

If it's the latter, then you'd better step it up, because the snore meter is on the rise.

Big Time wrote: The question I have posed is this: Is it more enjoyable when people spread out at the crag?" I believe the obvious answer is "Yes".

Well, actually, the question(s) you have posed is this:

Big Time wrote:Is it rude to climb next to another party? [snip] Do they not realize how their actions affect other climbers?

In any case, the answer to your new question is apparently not as obvious as you think it is, otherwise those terribly rude climbers wouldn't have gotten on the route next to you. Some people (maybe most) actually like being in the company of other climbers; they enjoy sharing their triumph at pulling that crux move, or giving a little encouragement to a neighboring climber who's sketched out.

If you prefer solitude when you're climbing, that's fine, but it doesn't mean you're entitled to it, and it doesn't mean that people who happen to want to climb a route near you are rude for doing so. I don't know Shelf Road, but if you really hate having other people nearby when you climb, it sounds like you've picked the wrong place.

JL

Dan Godshall wrote:Where was this route that you were projecting? You are looking for solitude in the wrong place if you hit Sand Gulch, Cactus, Spiney Ridge or the Bank. If you take the time to walk another 5 minutes past Spiney, the Gym is almost always deserted and 5 minutes past the Bank sits the wall with #1 Super Guy and some other fantastic climbs. If you REALLY want to be alone, go find the North End. Amazing climbing (although getting a little cold at this time of the year) and few people ever go there. If you are not willing to find the the quieter areas of Shelf (very little effort really...) you can not complain.

Don't forget Cactus Rose Cliff. Not a ton of routes but they're quality and I've never seen anyone there.

Wow! Heres a little for your yawn meter. If I have to ask you to move not once but twice cause my rope will hit you in the head when I pull it... YOUR TOO CLOSE. When your not happy that I'm swinging onto your climb as I try and clean my route....thats right TOO CLOSE!!! Now that all of you have had the chance to jump all over my climbing partner for posting something in a DISCUSSION FORUM, that your computer jocking heads didn't agree with, we'll get to the meat of the situation. I learned my lesson a long time ago in Eldo, when I was nearly hit by 3 basketball size rocks knocked off by a nOOb. Had those rocks come off the route directly next to me well....So yea for me its more of a safety issue. Yes climbing is dangerous, and yes Eldo has death blocs on every ledge. When it comes down to it, out of 900 climbs at shelf road, do you really need to throw your rope bad down on top of my dog and climb six inches next to me. If you do, don't be surprised that no, you can't grab that hold because my foot's there.

This post is almost identical to one about a year ago. I'm not going to bother looking it up, but the gist was "these girls just kept blabbin on and on in valley girl...". Anyone else remember it?

Mike Lane wrote:This post is almost identical to one about a year ago. I'm not going to bother looking it up, but the gist was "these girls just kept blabbin on and on in valley girl...". Anyone else remember it?

As I said - a regurgitated troll. These guys are amateurs.

Listen Ken. I don't know what kinda rotten hand life has thrown your way, but why must you take it out on people trying to engage in a legitimate discussion. If your not interested, than don't pay attention to it. As my climbing partner Scott pointed out, there are safety issues involved as well. I'm not looking to bring ridicule upon myself...seems you might be. And as for the amateur comment...you've got a lot to learn buddy.

: Is it more enjoyable when people spread out at the crag?"
BIG TIME restated his original thread post to this question.
Of course it is. but not reality. especially at shelf.

I thought it was was it rude to come climb next to someone? No it is not. It is common community practice. OUr crag is your crag.

I don't understand where you are trying to take your lame thread. All I can get out of this is a selfish nonsense talking chump who wants to have his space reserved once establishing a base camp.
Not gonna happen. Ken and company have done exactly what you wanted and that is to give you feedback on you "issue with personal space"
You can take the advice of those who gave it to you and suck it up or pack out. That pretty much it.
The sport is growing every day and if you don't like climbing near people or you think you have a saftey hazard becuase of it go else where. saftey is not the issue here. YOur personal space is. I have never read a route description that reads... Do not climb this route if CHUMP is belaying next to you on his project.If you want silence and solitude get into nailing A4 routes :) Not too many folks are gonna run up your heals when you slamming beaks big time!
Hope to see you at shelf this weekend.
Cheers.

Go the way of the trad side, and you will see less and less people.

Thank you to those of you who posted respectful, honest comments. There's a lot of things I'd like to say in response to the negativity but since we're not face to face I'll leave it at this: it's a sad day when grown men and women who share a common interest have to refer to a guidebook for suggestions on how to interact with one another:

" With the popularity of Cactus Cliff (no, we were not at Cactus)overcrowding is becoming a concern. Please be courteous and polite when climbing near other parties. With so many routes to choose from there's no need to horn your way in on another party who are already climbing a route. Please give them some room, DON'T BE RUDE AND COP A TUDE." Shelf Road Rock: A Complete Climbing Reference by Fred Knapp, Rick Thompson and Rich Aschert.