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The deadly ATC
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Nov 29, 2016
climbing friend,

much like the PAS thong, do not be utilizing the deadly ATC.

climbing.com/news/unbelayvable...

"Use an assisted braking belay device.

Even if you follow all the previous points, something could happen to your belayer. The outdoors are unpredictable. Things can go wrong. Assisted braking belay devices, such as the Grigri, add an extra measure of security in those scenarios. If your belayer is knocked out by rock fall while using a tube-style belay device, you are off belay. If they're using an assisted-braking device, though they are not designed to be used hands-free, it may still lock up and hold the rope. Insist that your partner use an assisted-braking device to stack the deck in your favor."
Aleks Zebastian
From Boulder, CO
Joined Jul 3, 2014
0 points
Nov 29, 2016
Beat you to it, AND I even referenced you. ;)
mountainproject.com/v/60-groun...
Ted Pinson
From Chicago, IL
Joined Jul 11, 2014
40 points
Nov 29, 2016
GriGri's have their own issues, or rather, belayers using GriGri's seem to be more likely to not have good solid belaying technique. It's important to ask, do we see more climbers decking when an ATC is in use versus a GriGri?

Anecdotal evidence is not a substitute for statistical studies.
George Wu
From Newport Beach, CA
Joined Jul 11, 2015
67 points
Nov 29, 2016
Honnold T Roper
From DC,VA,NM,UT,CT,MA
Joined Mar 31, 2006
730 points
Nov 29, 2016
The plueral of anecdote is not data.

But please, continue with the popularity contest.
Buff Johnson
Joined Dec 19, 2005
545 points
Nov 30, 2016
climbing friend,

you may use assisted braking device with someone who is not, how you say, "asshat," and you would be practicing the maximum safety!
Aleks Zebastian
From Boulder, CO
Joined Jul 3, 2014
0 points
Nov 30, 2016
They have airbags for cyclists and skiers. Time to get them for climbers. rging
From Salt Lake City, Ut
Joined Jul 18, 2011
25 points
Nov 30, 2016
climbing friend,

do you perhaps utilize the PAS thong?
Aleks Zebastian
From Boulder, CO
Joined Jul 3, 2014
0 points
Dec 1, 2016
rging wrote:
They have airbags for cyclists and skiers. Time to get them for climbers.



There are plenty of airbags in the online forums... Especially where it comes to preaching about the gear they prefer.
Fueco
From Boulder, CO
Joined Oct 30, 2015
256 points
Dec 1, 2016
Fueco wrote:
There are plenty of airbags in the online forums... Especially where it comes to preaching about the gear they prefer.


Bada-bing!
Stich
From Colorado Springs, Colorado
Joined Jan 1, 2001
1,230 points
Dec 1, 2016
George Wu wrote:
GriGri's have their own issues, or rather, belayers using GriGri's seem to be more likely to not have good solid belaying technique. It's important to ask, do we see more climbers decking when an ATC is in use versus a GriGri? Anecdotal evidence is not a substitute for statistical studies.


Not going to take the time to look it up, but I believe that both Jim Titt and Bearbreader have posted numberous links to data by the DAV in Germany which shows that there is a much higher accident rate with an ATC vs a GriGri.
Ken Noyce
From Layton, UT
Joined Aug 12, 2010
1,912 points
Dec 1, 2016
they have airbags for cyclists? Tom Sherman
From Bristol, RI
Joined Feb 23, 2013
81 points
Dec 1, 2016
I heard that before dropping her, he said "Hands up, no belay" in protest of the archaic ATC being thrust upon him by an older generation of white male climbers who insist on returning to the dark days of the hip belay. Matt Stroebel
From Lakewood, OH
Joined Apr 19, 2011
40 points
Administrator
Dec 1, 2016
Tom Sherman wrote:
they have airbags for cyclists?


Yep. There's an airbag helmet.
Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
Joined Jul 30, 2011
703 points
Dec 1, 2016
Fashions as a neck warmer, too Buff Johnson
Joined Dec 19, 2005
545 points
Dec 1, 2016
Aleks Zebastian wrote:
climbing friend, much like the PAS thong, do not be utilizing the deadly ATC. climbing.com/news/unbelayvable... "Use an assisted braking belay device. Even if you follow all the previous points, something could happen to your belayer. The outdoors are unpredictable. Things can go wrong. Assisted braking belay devices, such as the Grigri, add an extra measure of security in those scenarios. If your belayer is knocked out by rock fall while using a tube-style belay device, you are off belay. If they're using an assisted-braking device, though they are not designed to be used hands-free, it may still lock up and hold the rope. Insist that your partner use an assisted-braking device to stack the deck in your favor."



im disappointed. this post didnt come off nearly as... ethnic? as your normal post. we need more talk of the climbing rocks and neck meat.
Jake wander
Joined Aug 11, 2014
5 points
Dec 1, 2016
Fueco wrote:
There are plenty of airbags in the online forums... Especially where it comes to preaching about the gear they prefer.


I don't often laugh out loud but when I do it's almost always caused by a MP thread gone wild.
rging
From Salt Lake City, Ut
Joined Jul 18, 2011
25 points
Dec 1, 2016
Jake Jones wrote:
Yep. There's an airbag helmet.


You don't know about the Hoveding? Then you are missing out on what will surely be the next big thing in climbing. We will all look back on the days where it was possible to get hurt with great awe.


Helmets for cool people only
rging
From Salt Lake City, Ut
Joined Jul 18, 2011
25 points
Dec 1, 2016
kennoyce wrote:
Not going to take the time to look it up, but I believe that both Jim Titt and Bearbreader have posted numberous links to data by the DAV in Germany which shows that there is a much higher accident rate with an ATC vs a GriGri.


Hmm, thanks! That's actually good to know.
George Wu
From Newport Beach, CA
Joined Jul 11, 2015
67 points
Dec 1, 2016
kennoyce wrote:
Not going to take the time to look it up, but I believe that both Jim Titt and Bearbreader have posted numberous links to data by the DAV in Germany which shows that there is a much higher accident rate with an ATC vs a GriGri.


Yea but that same data showed the lowest accident rate for belaying with a Munter so...
Nathanael
From Riverside, CA
Joined May 27, 2011
151 points
Dec 1, 2016
Of course. How many newbs do you know use a munter? Ted Pinson
From Chicago, IL
Joined Jul 11, 2014
40 points
Dec 2, 2016
Nathanael wrote:
Yea but that same data showed the lowest accident rate for belaying with a Munter so...


Which totally makes sense since generally speaking, people belaying with a munter have been climbing a long time and tend to know what they are doing. It's generally the noobs that are dropping people, regardless of the device used, and I've never seen a noob belaying with a munter.
Ken Noyce
From Layton, UT
Joined Aug 12, 2010
1,912 points
Dec 4, 2016
I'm a big fan of Edelrid Jul 2 for lead belaying. I've seen two indoor full on (50ft) decks in the last year. Fortunately both climbers were okay. One with a GriGri and one with an ATC.

IMHO for belay devices.

ATC: No passive locking. In an ideal world, this would be sufficient but we've all seen situations where the belayer has let go of the brake hand. I saw this couple leading indoors and he out weighed her by many pounds. When he fell, she got pulled up to the first draw and completely let go of the device. Fortunately, she was using an GriGri and it locked.

GriGri: All motions are downward and can lead to confusion.
1. Holding the cam down for slack.
2. Lowering with the brake lever.
3. Catching a fall.

Passive locking (Jul, Mammut Smart, etc): Simple like the ATC but with passive locking.
Push up for slack
Pull down for catch.
Lowering not as smooth as ATC/GriGri

The Jul isn't great when lowering on beat up gym top ropes. I still use an ATC for that.
dino74
Joined Sep 16, 2016
5 points
Dec 4, 2016
^ +1 edlerid mega jul. I feel much safer when I'm leading and my belayer has this device. Belayer could be unconscious and I would still be safe. Also, cost only $30-35 and super light weight. David Fogel
From Lake Forest, CA
Joined Apr 28, 2015
750 points
Administrator
Dec 4, 2016
The Mega Jul is literately the worst belay device I've ever used, and I've been able to at least try most of the devices out there. It's okay for lead belaying on a single, thin rope, but for everything else it sucks beyond belief. Pretty much any of the other assisted devices are a much better bet. 20 kN
From Hawaii
Joined Feb 2, 2009
1,123 points
Dec 4, 2016
Fools will outsmart any 'foolproof' device. The best answer is to not climb with fools belaying you.

A belayers primary instinct even in times of stress and surprise should be to hold the brake strand locked off. If it isn't they clearly are not treating belaying with the respect it deserves.
patto
Joined Jul 9, 2012
0 points


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