Progress Capture for Downward Simul Climbing ???

Don't Fall !!!!!!!!!!

Curious if anyone has any clever strategy for protecting the follower (higher climber) from a leader fall (lower climber) in a simul climb in the downward direction .  Normal trax will protect the leader (lower climber) from getting jerked upward, but they are already pretty safe and essentially a meat anchor for the follower (however it would be a full leader-style fall for the follower).

I've come across something from Petzl - the ASAP, appears to lock in either direction if pulled hard enough.  Seems like it would do the trick, but may not lock fast enough to stop a leader fumble from peeling off the follower ...  **EDIT** the ASAP is HUGE !!! probably way too big, but does actually look like it would work ...

Anyone got anything better?  

Obviously, don't fall !!!!!

Perhaps consider the Revo, it's a semi popular LRS device and I've taken ~10 LRS falls on it. It does have some issues with getting damaged in big whippers, but that doesn't apply to this context I reckon. 

The ASAP is designed to be used with a one time deployable shock absorber and I've heard of the device itself breaking easily in climbing contexts. If you want a device like the ASAP that's more burly consider the Edelrid Fuse. 

No rope access device is suitable for rock climbing situations, they're made for static ropes with thick burly sheath, something dynamic ropes don't have. As Ricky said, the Revo is your best bet. 

Thanks, but ... Revo looks like belay devise, not something you can leave on gear like you do with a trax. Am I missing something for how it would be employed?

The fuse actually looks reasonable, still big, but better than the ASAP; however it says 10mm or bigger rope - obviously not what anyone is using in the alpine. I wonder if it'll still work on a 9mm rope ...

taz lov?

Dave Schultz wrote:

Thanks, but ... Revo looks like belay devise, not something you can leave on gear like you do with a trax. Am I missing something for how it would be employed?

The fuse actually looks reasonable, still big, but better than the ASAP; however it says 10mm or bigger rope - obviously not what anyone is using in the alpine. I wonder if it'll still work on a 9mm rope ...

The Revo is a sealed pulley and works more or less the same as the fuse. A microtrax was never intended to protect people while simul climbing, yet here we are. 

that guy named seb wrote:

The Revo is a sealed pulley and works more or less the same as the fuse. A microtrax was never intended to protect people while simul climbing, yet here we are. 

And screwdrivers aren’t prybars

totally, it's called simul-rappelling 

I don't get it - if both climbers are simulclimbing downwards, it doesn't matter. The higher climber will take a "normal" lead fall the same as if a simul leader falls. What could any device do? They fall until the slack is gone and then get caught by the lower climbers body. 

take TAKE wrote:

I don't get it - if both climbers are simulclimbing downwards, it doesn't matter. The higher climber will take a "normal" lead fall the same as if a simul leader falls. What could any device do? They fall until the slack is gone and then get caught by the lower climbers body. 

A Fuse or ASAP on some protection could realistically prevent the follower from taking that lead fall. I think it depends on how high above the Fuse they are-- it takes a couple feet for the device to catch, which would probably just take out some rope stretch and put a little tension on the follower if they're a long ways out. However, if they are only like 10' above the thing then I think they'd be going on a ride also. 

¿ Free Bell ?

An autoblock?

John Clark wrote:

And screwdrivers aren’t prybars

I once read in a tool book:

"All tools are hammers, except chisels, and they are screwdrivers"

Eric Craig wrote:

I once read in a tool book:

"All tools are hammers, except chisels, and they are screwdrivers"

And chisels that are screwdrivers are hammers

Important note, the ASAP and Fuse will feed smoothly in both directions, but only catch a fall in ONE DIRECTION (down in normal orientation/use)

Ricky Harline wrote:

A Fuse or ASAP on some protection could realistically prevent the follower from taking that lead fall. I think it depends on how high above the Fuse they are-- it takes a couple feet for the device to catch, which would probably just take out some rope stretch and put a little tension on the follower if they're a long ways out. However, if they are only like 10' above the thing then I think they'd be going on a ride also. 

The geometry of the fuse would make it very hard to use in this case. It’s pretty much impossible to orient it upside down.

Revo or Silent Partner... I'd worry about spin up rate to lock not being reached though. Actually... no, both of those have additional problems. Potentially catastrophic problems. Also, any consideration to the additional complexity should rescue of the down-climbing leader be necessary?

Lets say for example you have either mounted at the last piece before the down climbing follower... ie the highest piece.
1. The down-leader / lower climber falls.
2. The rope accelerates down and the device spins up to lock speed and locks
(no guarantee it will actually reach this speed on low angle terrain, for example... but lets assume it does)

Either:
3a. The top climber did get pulled off and falls.
* Some amount of rope will get pulled through the device before lockup, so regardless, its potentially higher than a factor 2 fall situation now if the device immediately locks up when the falling climber reaches the bottom of the fall before rope stretch, the rope stretch would immediately accelerate the device in the other direction and lock up.
3b. The top climber did not get pulled off.
* All is OK.

... So, you specifically need a device that will lockup with appropriate speed of the lower climber falling, but not lockup in the other direction should the top climber fall or they will get FF2 or 2+. It must be speed based, not a simple 1 way device like the microtrax or it wouldn't allow downclimbing at all.

I have a feeling that something like the camp Goblin, but upside down and in up/down mode, maybe, just maybe could work... but you would probably need to put a shorter draw above it that the rope goes through so a fall by the top climber doesn't load the device directly. Or like 2 close bolts, the lower with the gobin, the higher with a draw... Seems way too questionable and unknown to me.

Maybe a KISS method that could be plausible... a friction plate.
Something like this: https://www.knotandrope.com/cdn/shop/products/8288-4_1200x1200_crop_center.jpg?v=1665680013
BUT longer slot and extended from a bolt with a sling... and the rope also being clipped to a draw on that same bolt.
Idea being that it adds friction so if the lower climber falls, the top climber doesn't feel all of their weight, but would still feel some of it... and with the extension from the sling and the higher draw should somewhat mitigate the FF2 scenerio / top climber falling onto what essentially becomes a locked off guide mode plate. May need to use a pretty long sling. The plate being pulled up into the bolt / draw and/or banging around against the rock could create other unforseen issues.

All around 1/10. Bad idea. Just rap or walk off.

Desert - thx for the thoughtful exercise abd chair flying it.  Agree, there are many 2nd/3rd order risk/questions with the idea. I've settled that nothing *really* exists to engineer out some of the risk; and if down climbing is the best solution - better protect it and not fall.

• In most (all) instances there are better solutions than simul climbing down. And they are terrain/conditions dependent. Really the same for the up direction too, but maybe a little less so. If you are going to disagree, then give me an example of a climb and where on the climb. To some extent Wall IADs we can leave out of this. However, I have GUIDED the RNWF Half Dome in about 11-12 hours (I didn't record the time). No simul climbing. No hauling (well maybe on one of those pitches below Big Sandy. Not sure). No jumaring or even jumars with us, so I had to aid climb everything 5.10 or harder, and leave all the placements in situ, so my partner could climb same as I did. Also no linking pitches. It was a fucking great day, on my favorite Yosemite Valley long route.

Now short roping/pitching (sorry, another slash grade) down can be very smart, in certain types of situations. 

I know,  I am beating a dead horse here. But maybe someone,  just one person will be interested. Big maybe.

Why not just have the lower person have a gri gri and mange the slack for the person down leading? 

Iv done this from high on the regular route on Fairview to good effect bailing from a thunderstorm.  At one point when the route turned to a gutter I left a piece and carabiner, down climbed with a top rope and once on better ground tied in on a bite and pulled the rope. 

Jabroni, what you are describing is a little confusing to me, but appears to be an alternative to the OP scenario. I also imagine you did a fine job of it, even though I don't have a clear picture in my head. But you improvised, right? For your situation. 

Hey JM, go over to Name That Mountain and give my posted mountain a go. There are two clues upthread about the peak. No one else wants to play apparently.