Ethic prop: Don’t overly push someone to do an objective

Stay conservative. Maybe only after a proven history of friendship pushing makes sense imo. Then you know their attitude, style & strengths enough to give an educated encouragement knowing you’re not coercing them.

In BC skiing the ethic is to turn around as soon as someone gets a bad feeling. Or send someone so they go back with company.

It's weird that climbers have this admiration for sandbaggers and that we regard haughtiness at danger like it's a positive.

I urge us to think about this while ‘encouraging’/pushing friends onto tough climbs, sandbagging them. It could have dire consequences. Women and many people generally tend to be people pleasers and will cave. It’s a journey for them/us to listen to our gut & put a foot down to coercion. At the same time, don’t overly push, there's a good chance you could sandbag your partner to death.

Risk tolerances are different. Make sure the atmosphere is set for someone to push themselves for themselves not to preform or win approval. For most of us, we climb in our free time, it’s not a paycheck, keep a good harmony. The best climber is the one having the most fun! Make sure you’re all comfortable.

The opposite situation occurs often enough too - the ill-equipped, eager novice overly pushes his way into a group.

Cherokee Nunes wrote:

The opposite situation occurs often enough too - the ill-equipped, eager novice overly pushes his way into a group.

Yes. Coercing a group over selling their ability. That is dangerous but not as dangerous imo. A group/more experienced partner should know not to get in a sticky situation without testing the person/partnership first.

Hard agree with OP. I always think this when watching weekend whipper videos — 90% of the time, the climber is being egged on by like three other people (“come on! you got this! all you got! etc.“) up to the moment they fall (often awkwardly, ripping gear and/or inverting, narrowly avoiding serious injury). I used to “encourage” people myself a bit until the day when I tried to reassure a wobbly leader that she had gear at her waist, not knowing the gear was bad; she fell and the gear ripped and she inverted, but luckily the next piece held and she was OK. Now I limit myself to saying “nice” after someone has executed or placed gear after a tricky section.

My usual climbing partner, my wife — who has been through some pretty gnarly shit with me — only rarely and sparingly encourages me, usually at the perfect moment (for me), when I’ve decided to commit to a difficult section with good gear and a clean fall and just need a little extra boost. Personally I prefer not to hear much else from belayers except for things like “the rope is behind your leg” or “you’re going off route” or acknowledgment that they’re with me if I say watch me.

If I do receive gratuitous egging on from people, I try to remind myself that I’m not going to win any sponsorships for sending this 5.10! I’m doing this stuff for myself, not for anyone else.

This equally applies to choosing whether to get on something in the first place, which I think was your original point.

Being pushed to get after it on a sport climb is wildly different than pushing for a summit, or doing objectives that are "out there" IMO.
To me, pushing me to try the .12 at the sport crag, is not equal to someone pushing me for a summit with scary clouds a buildin'.
I'm happy to have the pressure sometimes to get after it. Nuance rears its ugly head.

To be clear, I absolutely agree with the spirit of this post.
You are the first in line to make decisions about your safety. Exercise it without shame.
Coming back to an objective is almost always an option.

I'm an intermediate trad climber at best. However, of the people I climb with regularly, I'm the rope gun and the strongest - I only mention that because I see it as my responsibility as the literal leader to keep the people I'm with safe and sometimes that means exercising my judgement that my partner, although they may believe they're capable, are in fact not at the level they need to be for certain objectives to be a safe idea for us as a team. 

This is a good message that followers should always keep in mind as we're each ultimately responsible for our own safety, but I also encourage the leaders/stronger partners out there to know when you need to shut down an idea if it's not safe for everyone involved.

Pushing and sandbagging n00bs has always been ethical IMO, similar to first year college students in a competitive program. 

Cosmic Hotdog wrote:

This is a good message that followers should always keep in mind as we're each ultimately responsible for our own safety, but I also encourage the leaders/stronger partners out there to know when you need to shut down an idea if it's not safe for everyone involved.

This is the main point in my opinion. Encouraging and sandbagging someone is a great tradition that can push people past their perceived limits, but only if its in an objectively safe situation. I've also seen newbies pushed into breaking their ankles on easy sport routes, usually by other newbies. Unfortunately there's a lot of new climbers that take the encouragement mindset from the gym outside and don't recognize that there's a lot more to being safe on real rock.

Just personally, I've never understood the pushing thing. I just shut up and belay.  I only say safety things like "flip that rope off that flake under you" and stuff like that.  I don't want people to talk to me at all when I'm leading, 

I agree with Phylp. I very much prefer silence when I am climbing or with others climbing--unless it is to provide a safety 'warning' or the climber specifically asks for beta/advice/ encouragement. Especially in a gym or at a crowded crag ( as so many are these days) it just amounts to annoying ( and potentially dangerous) noise pollution. And, even when someone is not actually climbing, I think any 'pushing' should be well-considered in light of the climber's ability and experience level--and should never push them into unsafe territory.

Big Red wrote:

This is the main point in my opinion. Encouraging and sandbagging someone is a great tradition that can push people past their perceived limits, but only if its in an objectively safe situation. I've also seen newbies pushed into breaking their ankles on easy sport routes, usually by other newbies. Unfortunately there's a lot of new climbers that take the encouragement mindset from the gym outside and don't recognize that there's a lot more to being safe on real rock.

Well put. The gym mentality definitely doesn't translate to the rock. Teaching methods vary drastically and one size does not fit all. 

I'm annoyed at people refusing to lower other people who want to bail. That said I still think the baseline level of comfort is to be willing to always get to the top of a vertical (no traverse no overhang) tr.

 For me it's just like drinking. Back when I was a professional drinker, I would never take a drink that I did not want to digest.  Dumbest thing ever is to allow yourself to get pushed into doing drugs or liquor that you don't want to do. 

Same thing with climbing. Especially Ice climbing.  You have to want to climb it. Not want to have climbed it.  Big difference. 

The internet is flooded with whippers where the dumb assed belayer is coaching the leader farther into the fuck around and find out zone when they should be coaching them to get some damn gear in.  

 I let my partners know that I don't care about gear. If you need to bail use whatever you need so that we all go home safe.  If you get the rope up this pitch awesome. If you think its too hard or scary no problem.  Maybe I will have a look at it or maybe we just bail. Its all good and no pressure.  When ice climbing I especially stress that a long drive and a big hike is no excuse for getting killed if the conditions are not right.  You can get seriously fucking killed climbing the wrong climb in the wrong conditions.  I am never impressed by stories that it fell down an hour after we topped out... 

M M wrote:

Pushing and sandbagging n00bs has always been ethical IMO, similar to first year college students in a competitive program. 

Amen

Alex C wrote:

I used to “encourage” people myself a bit until the day when I tried to reassure a wobbly leader that she had gear at her waist, not knowing the gear was bad; she fell and the gear ripped and she inverted, but luckily the next piece held and she was OK. Now I limit myself to saying “nice” after someone has executed or placed gear after a tricky section.

It annoys me a lot when people go overboard with the  "encouragement" on trad climbs for that exact reason- you have no idea what is actually going on up here on lead. I know they mean well and its typically my sport climber friends who just dont know any better, but its annoying for someone to repeat "Come on, you got it! I got you!" when my last piece of gear is objectively a bit shit and the next move feels tricky and insecure.

Im not just hanging here waiting to commit for no reason, im looking around to see if theres a hold or placement I missed and experimenting with different beta to see if I can find something im comfortable doing, or if I think I should just downclimb and retreat. If im hesitating a bunch its usually for a good reason, and the solution is rarely "just go for it"

Alan Rubin wrote:

I agree with Phylp. I very much prefer silence when I am climbing or with others climbing--unless it is to provide a safety 'warning' or the climber specifically asks for beta/advice/ encouragement. Especially in a gym or at a crowded crag ( as so many are these days) it just amounts to annoying ( and potentially dangerous) noise pollution. And, even when someone is not actually climbing, I think any 'pushing' should be well-considered in light of the climber's ability and experience level--and should never push them into unsafe territory.

one of the top 5 days of climbing of my life, had a bad week at work/school, and made a pact with my partner that we were going to just climb all day at a secluded crag with no talking. made a point to just stay silent all day, enjoying the breeze, just freaking awesome.

it also annoys me to watch leaders have full on convos with their belayers while climbing. like why are we even out here in the first place?

M M wrote:

Pushing and sandbagging n00bs has always been ethical IMO, similar to first year college students in a competitive program. 

I think it is more similar to a first year college student being hazed at a fraternity initiation. Both are mainly about the ego of the more experienced person, both can be objectively dangerous, and both can and have led to people dying. That's pretty crappy for a hobby. 

Anthony Tucciarone wrote:

It annoys me a lot when people go overboard with the  "encouragement" on trad climbs for that exact reason- you have no idea what is actually going on up here on lead. I know they mean well and its typically my sport climber friends who just dont know any better, but its annoying for someone to repeat "Come on, you got it! I got you!" when my last piece of gear is objectively a bit shit and the next move feels tricky and insecure.

Im not just hanging here waiting to commit for no reason, im looking around to see if theres a hold or placement I missed and experimenting with different beta to see if I can find something im comfortable doing, or if I think I should just downclimb and retreat. If im hesitating a bunch its usually for a good reason, and the solution is rarely "just go for it"

Yup. I only climb dicey shit with people who I think are competent, and it follows that if they’re competent then they don’t need my advice on when to push and what gear to trust when I’m 50ft+  away.