"New?" Bend Analysis

Hi MP,

I have come up with a new bend (probably not new, I'm sure it exists somewhere, but I don't know how to search about it)

I would love for someone with more experience to analyze it to see if it is useful.

I have found a couple of ways of tying it. This one can be tied on a bight.

It looks to me like a lesser variant of the Alpine Butterfly (where one of the loops does not catch the other strand).

I think it's possibly useful as a way to tie two ropes together (even though the flat overhand is probably superior) or to isolate part of the rope (where the Alpine Butterfly is probably superior).

I'm interested in seeing some analysis or any opinions from the more experienced members of MP.

If by a miracle this turns out to be unique and useful I'm calling it the Caterpillar Bend

Very cool!

Zeppelin Bend? 

dave custerwrote:

Zeppelin Bend? 

It's very distinct from the Zeppelin Bend (the tails are pointing at the same direction for instance, and the two loops are not interlaced)

It's almost exactly an Alpine Butterfly with the exception of the forming loops being independent (which I think gives it an advantage of being easier to tie)

I just wonder if that change compromises the strength and utility of the bend.

Looks like a job for someone with a slow pull machine.

I would love to see a comparison analysis of the following:

- tying two ropes of similar diameter (against Flat overhand)

- tying two ropes of different diameters (alternating sides since the bend is asymmetrical)

- isolating part of a rope (against proper Alpine Butterfly)

- likelihood of being stuck in rock after rapping on it and pulling the rope

https://www.animatedknots.com/alpine-butterfly-bend-knot 

Blurb -

Uses: The Alpine Butterfly Bend is derived from the Alpine Butterfly, or Lineman’s, Loop (ABOK # 1053, p 191). It is one in a family of knots based on interlocking overhand knots. It is a reliable bend used to join two ropes of roughly similar size and can be untied even after being heavily loaded. The Alpine Butterfly Bend version enjoys a good reputation – probably because of its association with the better known Alpine Butterfly Loop.

Ryan of the HowNot2 fame, has youtube video on alpine butterfly - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqlkVuECmPY Keep in mind - his testing was on the loop, not bend

Certainly not new.

Its not a Butterfly bend (corresponding to #1053 Butterfly).

You'll find the 'TIB' eye knot version in Ashley Book of Knots at illustration #1038.

Cut the 'eye' - and you have the 'bend' (they are related).

Mark Gommerswrote:

Certainly not new.

Its not a Butterfly bend (corresponding to #1053 Butterfly).

You'll find the 'TIB' eye knot version in Ashley Book of Knots at illustration #1038.

Cut the 'eye' - and you have the 'bend' (they are related).

It's not the same as the Alpine Butterfly, there is a very slight difference between the two.

I wanted to know if it makes the version in the OP compromised due to the change or if it's still a useful bend

I wanted to know if it makes the version in the OP compromised due to the change or if it's still a useful bend

Depends on precisely what you mean by the word "useful".

If  your question is:  'Is this end-to-end joining knot useful to a climber in life critical applications? Answer = No

As for your other questions...

I just wonder if that change compromises the strength and utility of the bend.

Looks like a job for someone with a slow pull machine.

I would love to see a comparison analysis of the following:

- tying two ropes of similar diameter (against Flat overhand)

- tying two ropes of different diameters (alternating sides since the bend is asymmetrical)

- isolating part of a rope (against proper Alpine Butterfly)

- likelihood of being stuck in rock after rapping on it and pulling the rope

Strength is irrelevant. In life critical applications, what matters most is stability, security, and jam resistance.

Don't 'rap' / 'abseil' on this 'bend' - unless you have life insurance and had made out and lodged a will.

There are far better choices available...

Mark Gommerswrote:

Depends on precisely what you mean by the word "useful".

If  your question is:  'Is this end-to-end joining knot useful to a climber in life critical applications? Answer = No

As for your other questions...

Strength is irrelevant. In life critical applications, what matters most is stability, security, and jam resistance.

Don't 'rap' / 'abseil' on this 'bend' - unless you have life insurance and had made out and lodged a will.

There are far better choices available...

I definitely wouldn't use that knot in practice. I am just curious about the same elements you highlighted "stability, security and jam resistance" in this "variation"

The only marginal pro I see is that it's slightly easier to tie.

Thank you for joining the conversation

Hello Spinsser H,

I am just curious about the same elements you highlighted "stability, security and jam resistance" in this "variation"

Can you elaborate on what you mean by; "I am curious about...?"

Which part of the metrics of 'stability, security, and jam resistance' are you curious about?

I'm short on time - am trying to zero-in on exactly what are you wanting to know...

I've been playing around with this weird variation OP posted and it seems to capsize rather easily and is more prone to loosening under cyclic loading/unloading.  I definitely won't use it to replace a Butterfly.  In fact, tying it on a bight, it's just a Butterfly tied wrong.  It doesn't seem easier to tie, in my opinion.  

Mark Gommerswrote:

Hello Spinsser H,

Can you elaborate on what you mean by; "I am curious about...?"

Which part of the metrics of 'stability, security, and jam resistance' are you curious about?

I'm short on time - am trying to zero-in on exactly what are you wanting to know...

Sorry for not being clear.

I meant that I am curious on seeing how this variation would perform against the established alternatives under those metrics.

Thanks

James Moffattwrote:

I've been playing around with this weird variation OP posted and it seems to capsize rather easily and is more prone to loosening under cyclic loading/unloading.  I definitely won't use it to replace a Butterfly.  In fact, tying it on a bight, it's just a Butterfly tied wrong.  It doesn't seem easier to tie, in my opinion.  

Did you dress it well before trying it?

I am traveling and don't have any proper ropes or cords I can test it on.

I only tied it in 7mm accessory cord, not a dynamic climbing rope.  I played around with it, well dressed vs sloppy and tight vs loose.  Definitely less secure than a butterfly.  No advantage when untying, the butterfly is already easy to untie even after heavy loads.  

I can't speak for Mark Gommers but I don't see any advantage in stability, security, or jam resistance.  I do see, at a minimum, a disadvantage in stability and security.  

Spinsser H,

I meant that I am curious on seeing how this variation would perform against the established alternatives under those metrics

Presumably you by 'perform' you mean in the context of life critical roping applications?

 If yes, this 'bend' (#1038) is a poor choice - because it is unstable and insecure.

Also, you are not the inventor/creator of this 'bend' - its been long known (and avoided).

There are much 'better' choices available (for life critical roping applications).

Also, it isn't a 'variation' of the Butterfly (if thats what you mean by variation).

If you're interested in learning more about knots, I recommend that you go to this website: https://www.paci.com.au/knots.php 

@ Mark--I don't know if you have any history with Spinsser H, but even my MP standards you come off as a real a**hole.  Maybe you just didn't have your coffee before posting?  

How about you lighten up?  Knots are fun.  Experimenting is cool.  Play is a path toward learning.  

If you feel like broadening your mind you could start here:

https://www.quantamagazine.org/why-mathematicians-study-knots-20221031/

Yes, knots can be used in life critical situations (your emphasis) so it's important to be clear about pros/cons, but it's also just fun to think about. 

By the way, have you heard of the dragon knot?  (Not to be confused with the dragon loop, the double dragon, or variations).  It's a really usefull knot.  I used it a great deal on NOLS mountaineering courses.  Super effective.

I'm  unfamiliar with the dragon knot,  but I have a set of dragon nuts.  

Bruno Schullwrote:

By the way, have you heard of the dragon knot? 

Any more info on this? - I am hitting blanks. Quite a lot of hits to 'double dragon loop', which looks quite cool and easy to tie.

amariuswrote:

Any more info on this? - I am hitting blanks. Quite a lot of hits to 'double dragon loop', which looks quite cool and easy to tie.

Is this a serious inquiry or asked “tongue in cheek”?

The dragon bowline is a joke (and a poor one at best). There are a couple of videos on YouTube showing it.

It is a regular bowline being dragged along the ground (i.e. dragon bowline -> drag on bowline -> dragging bowline).

Gosh darn it Marty, you spoiled it!

I was going to post a series of picture about the dragon knot!  It's always fun to troll knot nerds like Mark. 

Anyway, Amarius, yes, it's a joke.  Fun to lead people through all kinds of machinations with some Gordian knot, and then have them lay it on the ground...and drag it. 

No sense of humor on this thread!

I was messing around with it and you can turn a munter hitch into a 'caterpillar loop' pretty easily. Cutting the loop turns it into the original bend.

Probably not useful, but I thought it was interesting.