Poorly executed bolted routes in BCC

I have been climbing in the canyons here for 5 years now, and I love it.  I am an old guy so I can't do anything very difficult anymore.  So I spend lots of time on the easier climbs.  I think of myself as a trad climber, but clip many bolts as well.  I don't declare myself an expert, but have put up a few routes, and I get frustrated when it seems the first ascenionist wasn't thinking. ( At least like me!)  So I picked out a few examples.  This should get me plenty of haters, but I think it is worth it.

1. Over Easy.  This would be a perfect beginner sport climb, but the first bolt is 20 feet off the ground.  Yes, there is a placement for a small cam, if you are relaxed enough to find the spot and place it.  But there are plenty of placements up higher and this is all sport bolted.  It should have another bolt added.  I think it was bolted in the early spring when the snow was covering the start of the route.  But we don't know who did the FA so we can't ask. Perhaps this could be discussed by the SLCA?

2. Itchy Scratchy.  This is a fun romp, and great intro to multi pitch.  But once again the start is poorly protected, and is probobly the hardest part.  There is an obvious line of holds that you follow up and right, but then you have to make awkward moves away from them  to get to the pin which is the first piece of gear.  Supposedly there is a small cam placement over there too, but why not just place a bolt where the holds are?  The rest of the route is so well done. (BTW some misguided soul placed a bolt in a strange spot, without permission.  That's not good either)

3.Ledgemere.  There are a bunch of fun short sport routes here.  But one has a spot where you have to have a #1 Camalot.  Come on!  It's a sport climb in appearance.  Yes, if you have the guidebook... or are familiar with this site...  but plenty of people aren't equipped with either.  Trust me it's not fun to get to that spot without that cam!  If you are going to bolt it. bolt it.  And while you are at it, if there is a ledge rest, there should be a bolt to clip, not 6 feet higher than you can reach.

4.Firefly. A fun 5.6 climb to the top of a pedestal, where there is a bolted anchor.   There is a bulge above, protected by a bolt.  Then nothing? You have to go mountaineering.   Should be a second anchor here.  That would allow you to choose your adventure, and rap right back down.

So, i said my piece.  Not sure it will do any good, but I tried.

A final note: I approached James Garrett about one of his climbs, where I thought the first bolt was too high, and not only did he approve of adding one, he provided the bolt and glue!

Your heart is in the right place. Let the hate begin.

OK I'll bite on this one:

3.Ledgemere.  There are a bunch of fun short sport routes here.  But one has a spot where you have to have a #1 Camalot.  Come on!  It's a sport climb in appearance.  Yes, if you have the guidebook... or are familiar with this site...  but plenty of people aren't equipped with either.  Trust me it's not fun to get to that spot without that cam!  If you are going to bolt it. bolt it.  And while you are at it, if there is a ledge rest, there should be a bolt to clip, not 6 feet higher than you can reach.

Just because it "looks" like a sport climb doesn't mean it is.  This is a lazy and dangerous way to hop on a route, of which I've been guilty a few times.  If you're not equipped with gear, a guidebook, etc then that's on you.  Whether to add a bolt on a climb is up the the FA.  Sometimes it makes sense to add one where gear is available, such as stupid hard moves, too much wandering from the line, or to help direct where the route goes.  Sometimes it doesn't make sense to add a bolt, maybe it's an easy obvious placement and it seems unethical to add a bolt there, or maybe the world doesn't need to be bolted. 

Oh, and keep climbing, you'll find many more to add to this list.    

I’ll add one:

Coral Bells Arete - I don’t know the history of this climb, but it’s another one where you need a single cam. It’s not really optional in the sense that if you fall close to the anchors, you will certainly deck without that cam placement. 

Luke S wrote:

I’ll add one:

Coral Bells Arete - I don’t know the history of this climb, but it’s another one where you need a single cam. It’s not really optional in the sense that if you fall close to the anchors, you will certainly deck without that cam placement. 

Description                               

This climbs an arete on the east face.  This arete is obvious from the fork.  This is a great climb that protects well.  The crux is definitely the 1st bolt.  Clipped high it is a safe overhang to fall on.  The smooth face above is tricky but not too hard.  The flake gives you a nice natural place to protect.

Tim Kemple wrote:

2. Itchy Scratchy.  This is a fun romp, and great intro to multi pitch.  But once again the start is poorly protected, and is probobly the hardest part.  There is an obvious line of holds that you follow up and right, but then you have to make awkward moves away from them  to get to the pin which is the first piece of gear.  Supposedly there is a small cam placement over there too, but why not just place a bolt where the holds are?  The rest of the route is so well done. (BTW some misguided soul placed a bolt in a strange spot, without permission.  That's not good either)

It's listed as trad on MP. The description says:

Description                               

Itchy Scratchy follows good rock for 5 pitches, can be climbed with 8 draws, a light rack, rapped with a single 60m rope and is shady mornings all year! I saw the 5th pitch crack from Starstruck and thought it might be good. Turns out it is!  
Pitches 1 and 4 are very good.
Pitches 2 & 3 are mostly easy, with short bits of steeper climbing, similar to the end of the 1st pitch of Steort's Ridge.
Pitch 5 makes the route!
 Pitches 1-4 can be climbed at 5.7 R bolts only. Gear and small trees can be used to make the route well protected for beginners. See pitch descriptions.  

Tim Kemple wrote:

1. Over Easy.  This would be a perfect beginner sport climb, but the first bolt is 20 feet off the ground.  Yes, there is a placement for a small cam, if you are relaxed enough to find the spot and place it.  But there are plenty of placements up higher and this is all sport bolted.  It should have another bolt added. 

From the MP route page:

This route starts on the belay ledge just right of Leggo my Eggo.  It follows the obvious crack system up towards the arching line of Variety Delight.  It appears from the ledge that you can climb this lower section crack and meet up with Variety Delight for the finish.  I am sure that this is possible, but it wasn't for me.  Over Easy traverses left when the protection runs out and heads across the the Leggo My Eggo face towards a bush on the arete on the left side.  Clip a bolt or two depending on the diagonal line you take. When you get to the left side of the face use caution because the rock is not super clean (there is some flaking and chipping still going on.) Above the bush the climb angles back up the chimney / ledge system to the right. The climbing at this point is not difficult, however there is not really any protection available until you get up to the anchors.

       Protection                               

The first 30 feet takes good normal pro from a trad rack.  Crossing the face you are able to clip a bolt or two. The last 30 feet there is basically no protection.       

I think it was bolted in the early spring when the snow was covering the start of the route.  But we don't know who did the FA so we can't ask. Perhaps this could be discussed by the SLCA?

Hey Marc,

I think we can assume that everyone knows how to read a mountain project description. More generally, I think we could also be a little nicer to each other on here.

I know that the the route I mentioned is listed in mountain project as trad. I also recognize that it has an adequate placement for a single piece of gear. But also, it’s at one of the most popular beginner crags in the Wasatch, so I don’t think it is too crazy to suggest adding a single bolt.

I’m not going to go do it; I know it’s at the discretion of the FA. I also enjoy trad climbing in the Wasatch and am not sure that we’d be losing a great trad climb by adding a single bolt to this thing.

But again, more than anything, I think we should be able to discuss adding bolts without being disrespectful. 

Tim Kemple wrote:

 Perhaps this could be discussed by the SLCA?

No it will not. That is not the charter of the SLCA.

Note: Though I am the resident historian and curmudgeon for the SLCA Policy Committee I am not speaking for the SLCA.

Marc801 C wrote:

Description                               

This climbs an arete on the east face.  This arete is obvious from the fork.  This is a great climb that protects well.  The crux is definitely the 1st bolt.  Clipped high it is a safe overhang to fall on.  The smooth face above is tricky but not too hard.  The flake gives you a nice natural place to protect. 

I’ve led this many times, and every time I wondered whether that flake would  expand or maybe even explode into pieces if I fell at the overhang or just above it. I have never tested it with a fall, and have never heard of anyone doing so. Failure of this relatively thin flake would probably result in a ground fall. 
Remember that cams are force multipliers, and sometimes cause the rock to fail. They tend to do so in situations like the one on this climb. If someone gets hurt badly or dies here, a bolt will probably follow.

Everyone knows what "Ground Up" bolting means, right?   So it has nothing to do with poor execution.  The bolts were placed as needed, not according to a master design.  

Marc801 C wrote:

From the MP route page:

This route starts on the belay ledge just right of Leggo my Eggo.  It follows the obvious crack system up towards the arching line of Variety Delight.  It appears from the ledge that you can climb this lower section crack and meet up with Variety Delight for the finish.  I am sure that this is possible, but it wasn't for me.  Over Easy traverses left when the protection runs out and heads across the the Leggo My Eggo face towards a bush on the arete on the left side.  Clip a bolt or two depending on the diagonal line you take. When you get to the left side of the face use caution because the rock is not super clean (there is some flaking and chipping still going on.) Above the bush the climb angles back up the chimney / ledge system to the right. The climbing at this point is not difficult, however there is not really any protection available until you get up to the anchors.

       Protection                               

The first 30 feet takes good normal pro from a trad rack.  Crossing the face you are able to clip a bolt or two. The last 30 feet there is basically no protection.       

    

Did you read the title of the thread Marc? Jumping the gun a bit here?

Wrong canyon bud.

Bolt the Wasatch!

Igor Chained wrote:

Did you read the title of the thread Marc? Jumping the gun a bit here?

Wrong canyon bud.

Bolt the Wasatch!

Oops! My mistake! But again, it's listed as a trad route with the following description:

Pitch 1: Locate the first bolt about 20' up from the base of the chimney/gully. Climb up past 9 bolts to a 3 bolt anchor, clip the anchor and climb up through a steeper juggy crack. Follow the weakness to the top and a 2 bolt anchor. This is a pretty fun line, with the crux getting to the first bolt, and mostly cruiser climbing after it. Good candidate for someones first trad lead.

Marc801 C wrote:

Oops! My mistake! But again, it's listed as a trad route with the following description:

Pitch 1: Locate the first bolt about 20' up from the base of the chimney/gully. Climb up past 9 bolts to a 3 bolt anchor, clip the anchor and climb up through a steeper juggy crack. Follow the weakness to the top and a 2 bolt anchor. This is a pretty fun line, with the crux getting to the first bolt, and mostly cruiser climbing after it. Good candidate for someones first trad lead.

Just giving you grief.
Yeah, that bolt is more like 12 to 15ft.

I love going up safe clip-ups. With that said, not everything has to be brought down to the lowest denominator.

Some old crusty once said: "We better raise our skills than lower our climbs!" 

My philosophy on bolts and bolting- in a nutshell.

When it’s done and you need to carry 1-2 pieces- just bolt the sucker and call it good.

If 1st bolt is up 30… use your stick clip!

Carry on. 

Peter Lenz wrote:

I’ve led this many times, and every time I wondered whether that flake would  expand or maybe even explode into pieces if I fell at the overhang or just above it. I have never tested it with a fall, and have never heard of anyone doing so. Failure of this relatively thin flake would probably result in a ground fall.
Remember that cams are force multipliers, and sometimes cause the rock to fail. They tend to do so in situations like the one on this climb. If someone gets hurt badly or dies here, a bolt will probably follow.

Got a bunch of rope out...which should keep the force on the rock lower.  Nuts are force multipliers too...for that matter.  At least if the rock moves a bit, the cam might adjust to the new size.  Although...more of a concern to me in BCC has always been how slick the rock is (compared to LCC's granite especially).  I've always been careful of parallel-sided crack placements in Big because of that slickness.

I dimly recall placing a number of cams on the route above the bolts.  I think three or four?  Never felt it was an unsafe lead given I could get a number of gear placements above the bolts.  Mostly just takes wanting to find the placements instead of "the call of the chains"...ha ha.

Interesting comments, Tim.  Most of the route FA'ers are around.  I'm sure they'll think about the comments.  If they were my routes, I would.

Cheers!

I cherish my memories of that anticipatory "shit your pants" feeling endowed just before executing the opening sequence on Itchy scratchy and the subsequent wave of accomplishment mixed with realization that it really wasn't that spicy. Worked wonders to regulate bowel movement. 

On a serious note for Firefly, what's wrong with continuing another 40 feet or so to Mr bad lucks chains?  

Brian in SLC wrote:

Got a bunch of rope out...which should keep the force on the rock lower.  Nuts are force multipliers too...for that matter.  At least if the rock moves a bit, the cam might adjust to the new size.  Although...more of a concern to me in BCC has always been how slick the rock is (compared to LCC's granite especially).  I've always been careful of parallel-sided crack placements in Big because of that slickness.

I dimly recall placing a number of cams on the route above the bolts.  I think three or four?  Never felt it was an unsafe lead given I could get a number of gear placements above the bolts.  Mostly just takes wanting to find the placements instead of "the call of the chains"...ha ha.

Interesting comments, Tim.  Most of the route FA'ers are around.  I'm sure they'll think about the comments.  If they were my routes, I would.

Cheers!

Agreed. One other thing about Coral Bells Arete: the first ascent was a long time ago. At that time, placing bolt adjacent to the overhang/flake would have a resulted in a lynch mob, or even worse, “a meeting!” The first ascensionists definitely did a good job, and followed the “usual and customary,” bolting practices of the day.
I don’t feel I can criticize their work. That said, it wouldn’t hurt my feelings if a bolt was added in that location. I think a discussion with the first ascensionists would be worthwhile. 

Peter Lenz wrote:

Agreed. One other thing about Coral Bells Arete: the first ascent was a long time ago. At that time, placing bolt adjacent to the overhang/flake would have a resulted in a lynch mob, or even worse, “a meeting!” The first ascensionists definitely did a good job, and followed the “usual and customary,” bolting practices of the day.
I don’t feel I can criticize their work. That said, it wouldn’t hurt my feelings if a bolt was added in that location. I think a discussion with the first ascensionists would be worthwhile. 

Well...still not very accepted to add bolts to climbs that take pro (huge example of that "just across the way" from CBA...hate to bring that painful turd up).  For Coral Bells, they followed a custom still very much in practice today.  Look at all the OP's "poorly executed" examples.  They're trad routes with a few pro bolts.  These are all fairly recent routes.

At what point is the route accepted "as is"?  What if the first ascensionists regret putting any bolts in and decided it was just best to remove them all?  Or, in a lot of cases, just completely bolt a crack climb because trad gear has become too spendy?  At some point...I'm thinkin' the community accepts the route as is, especially if gear is pluggable and the rock hasn't spalled off.

The route is over 30 years old.  Its never been a "sport route".  In the Ruckman guide the description notes "bring a few nuts".  If the features that hold gear fell off...that'd be a good reason.  Until then...dunno.  Best to leave IMHO.

This is why I started installing suggestion/complaint boxes at the base of my routes. Sounds like you need a full refund, Karen.