Is it possible and safe to use two carabiners for guide mode belay?

I usually belay my two followers in guide mode with Giga Jul in a multi pitch setting, and I have them climbed simultaneously maybe like 15 ft apart. The only problem I have is there is so much friction to take out the slack, and my arms get tired out.

Just curious if it is possible to use two HMS carabiners stack on top to create a bigger round for taking out slack smoother. Will this compromise the auto block function or create other issues down the line? 

Use thinner, newer, maybe dry treated ropes.

Or use a Gigi.

mbk wrote:

Use thinner, newer, maybe dry treated ropes.

Or use a Gigi.

Gigi is the way. I’ve used it a couple of times belaying two followers and it’s definitely an arm saver compared to an ATC Guide. But just like the ATC, keep in mind the failure mode that can occur when there is the possibility of a traverse fall between the last piece of protection and the anchor.

GiGi or Ovo is the way + round stock attache.

Giga-wasteofmoney. Over designed. Gigi rules. 

Jarret Xu wrote:

Gigi is the way. I’ve used it a couple of times belaying two followers and it’s definitely an arm saver compared to an ATC Guide. But just like the ATC, keep in mind the failure mode that can occur when there is the possibility of a traverse fall between the last piece of protection and the anchor.

https://pasteboard.co/wKoyxgoNmkB5.png

Beside the above scenario, I could see the guide mode is not blocking when the climber falls.

However, I don't see how a traverse fall between the last piece of protection and the anchor, that behaves like above. I actually tested out a few scenarios if the last piece was right of, below and above 2ft of anchor. The moment the climber falls, the rope get yanked hard and it pulls up the belay device and makes the auto block worked. 

The only scenario I can think of as your described above, only if the belay device is fixed somehow and can't be yanked in any direction. But that's unlikely in a real life scenario.

Can you please explain in case I'm missing something? 

The lowest friction belay device in guide mode out there is the smart alpine. It's lower than the Gigi even. If you want a tube style ABD device and want an easy time belaying two seconds simultaneously get a smart alpine. Or a Gigi. But the Gigi is a bit worse than the smart. 

I bought one as I heard it was the lowest friction device in guide mode. Imagine my surprise when it was harder to pull than my go-to Smart. Tried it out on a bunch of my different ropes and they all have more friction on the Gigi than the smart. The smart alpine kicks ass. 

Ricky Harline wrote:

The lowest friction belay device in guide mode out there is the smart alpine. It's lower than the Gigi even. If you want a tube style ABD device and want an easy time belaying two seconds simultaneously get a smart alpine. Or a Gigi. But the Gigi is a bit worse than the smart. 

I bought one as I heard it was the lowest friction device in guide mode. Imagine my surprise when it was harder to pull than my go-to Smart. Tried it out on a bunch of my different ropes and they all have more friction on the Gigi than the smart. The smart alpine kicks ass. 

Too bad they stopped making it

B U wrote:

https://pasteboard.co/wKoyxgoNmkB5.png

Beside the above scenario, I could see the guide mode is not blocking when the climber falls.

However, I don't see how a traverse fall between the last piece of protection and the anchor, that behaves like above. I actually tested out a few scenarios if the last piece was right of, below and above 2ft of anchor. The moment the climber falls, the rope get yanked hard and it pulls up the belay device and makes the auto block worked. 

The only scenario I can think of as your described above, only if the belay device is fixed somehow and can't be yanked in any direction. But that's unlikely in a real life scenario.

Can you please explain in case I'm missing something? 

The guide mode device can lock in one direction but can not lock in two directions at once. Imagine belaying two followers on a traversing pitch.

The first follower passes the final protection before the anchor and falls. The guide mode belay should catch downward. Now if the second follower also falls, still clipped into the protection, that pull would be sideways and not down so that rope would not lock and the second follower would be dropped.

Does that make sense?

Jason wrote:

Too bad they stopped making it

$70 used seems to be going rate or about $90 for new old stock. Easy to find on eBay and even here on MP

Another vote for gigi or ovo. Even for just belaying one 2nd, it's an arm saver. 

Alex Fletcher wrote:

The guide mode device can lock in one direction but can not lock in two directions at once. Imagine belaying two followers on a traversing pitch.

The first follower passes the final protection before the anchor and falls. The guide mode belay should catch downward. Now if the second follower also falls, still clipped into the protection, that pull would be sideways and not down so that rope would not lock and the second follower would be dropped.

Does that make sense?

Thanks for the explanation! This makes totally sense.

But rule #1 of belaying is to never let go of brake hand :) 

I'm not 100% sure if the gigajul would behave the same way, but with an ATC adding a second carabiner would increase friction, not decrease it. It's a common trick to add friction when rappeling.

B U wrote:

Thanks for the explanation! This makes totally sense.

But rule #1 of belaying is to never let go of brake hand :) 

If the device is used incorrectly the brake hand may not be sufficient.

Alec Baker wrote:

It depends.

Ive played around with this a lot, and if the carabiners are oriented well, it does actually reduce friction in an ATC or Gigajul. If you look at the alpine smart, which someone upthread said is the easiest to pull rope through (and I agree), the reduced friction is accomplished by clipping the carabiner outside of the device, forcing the bight of rope clipped through the device to become larger.

The problem is when the rope does become tensioned, it tends to twist the carabiners up and down which adds additional friction/tension in both directions. So once its locked from a pull on the climbers side, you need more than a pull from the belayers side to have the rope pull smoothly again. 

While adding a 2nd carabiner does reduce friction ~sometimes~ overall there are better solutions.

Heres a demonstration youtu.be/w78NLHgR_hI 

I'm curious what your better solutions are, unless it's just to use a different belay device. I've taken to redirecting my belay more often when using the gigajul, but only with one follower

IMO the munter superseeds the hip belay on rock

now if yr on snow where theres a lot of easy ground and shiet anchors .... and yr wearing a nice expensive dead bird jacket yr willing to destroy ... the hip belay has a purpose

https://vlc.onl/

but for most modern rock climbing, i dont think its needed ... a rock climber will never be without a harness and at least a locking (or 2 non locking) biners

with all the dropping of climbers these days, id be hesitant to show any newbie the hip belay