Making my own QuickDraw

Wanted to make my own draw set that was light and easy to clip. Mostly climbing trad so wanted to save a little weight on approach but also be able to clip the rope easily. My alpine draw setup is black diamond dyneema runner with two black diamond mini wires. Super light but not the easiest biner to clip sometimes. So I was thinking a dyneema dogbone, length 16 cm with a camp 22 biner for rope end. The bolt/racking biner I’m curious what everyone would recommend. I was looking at maybe a straight gate like the djin or wild country helio, the oz is another. Just interested in hearing others opinion or their own setup.

Edit: My preferred (I don't ice) is to have nano22 as gear side and then a larger/wider radius for wear/easier to clip rope side biner. Ange S or Chimera on the smaller side. Ange L or Helium on the larger side. I’ve used all of those and been happy. 

Nice! Thanks for your input. I was under the impression that the nano 22 is easier to clip than the mini wire, but I see your point in having a larger basket for the rope end.

Kenneth Dougher wrote:

Nice! Thanks for your input. I was under the impression that the nano 22 is easier to clip than the mini wire, but I see your point in having a larger basket for the rope end.

I find the nano better in every way compared to the miniwire. I actually think its quite easy to clip and I had them on both sides of my draws for a while. A more experience partner of mine pointed out that it's a good idea to have a wider radius carabiner on the rope side. Not necessarily a larger basket but the width of the basket on the nano and mini is very narrow. YMMV

I've found the chimera and ange s are roughly the same size as the nano but are both key locking and have wider radii 

Didn’t they bring back the Oz? Worth at least 45¢ on the dollar

I made a set of general use draws that I wanted to be on the light side and they have served me well for a few years now. I went with Heliums on both sides with a Black Diamond 12mm dogbone. I have some 12cm and some 16cm. You could also go with their 10mm dogbone to save a bit more weight. I used one rope-end color for the shorter draws and a different color for the longer draws. Took a while to get that many Heliums together… but it’s been a nice setup that’s worked for sport, trad, multi, and ice. 

In regards to the Ange S, Ange L, Chimera, Miniwire, and OZ, these are the carabiners that have made up my rack for a long while now.  Quick review-

Ange S- These are smaller and fiddlier than I like.  I think the gate's single wire is just kinda hard to clip, and requires more stabilization of the entire unit to get right.  The very thin nose is nice when clipping things like pitons and pickets.  I don't have much of an issue with gloves, like many other users.  I use these for my alpine draws and a few quickdraw on DMM dyneema dogbones.  I am not super happy with the setup, but not unhappy enough to replace them. Would I buy it again? No, but I don't hate them.

Ange L- The larger size definitely makes it easier to stabilize and clip compared to the Ange S, at the cost of a few grams.  The rest is the same.  I carry a few longer slings on them and have a few spares on my harness usually.  Would I buy it again? Yes, a few.

Chimera-  These are very very nice in nearly all regards and have a good color selection.  The nose is a little wider than the Ange or the Miniwire, so I like to carry at least a few Anges for the odd clips.  Would I buy it again? Yes.

Miniwire- These things are light, cheap, and come in a bunch of colors.  They are a little finicky to handle, and they snag, especially when there is a lot on the rack. I recently retired these for the Chimera and am happy about that.  Would I buy it again? If price was a big factor, yes.  If not, no.

OZ- These were my favorite until they got discontinued.  They handle nicely, are snagless, and have some color options.  It's overall similar to the Chimera, but a tiny bit larger. Would I buy it again? Yes.

Dr Logic wrote:

Looks like they brought these back. blackdiamondequipment.com/e…

Yes, but I moved on   

Basically, they are on par with the other solid contenders to me. Also, they unfortunately came back with fewer colors (as far as I recall).

Kenneth Dougher wrote:

 So I was thinking a dyneema dogbone, length 16 cm with a camp 22 biner for rope end. The bolt/racking biner I’m curious what everyone would recommend.\

Why dogbone at all?  Is it because of the rubber keeper?  You can buy those as separate units.  On some of my trad draws setups, I use runners of a few different lengths, fitted with a rubber keeper and a Petzl Ange L on the rope end.  

Ok I’m thinking the heliums for the rope end and nanos or oz hoodwire for the other. Reason I mentioned dogbone is because I was looking at black diamonds three pack 10 mm 16 cm slings. I have neutrino QuickDraws and they’re great but feel heavy like a sport draw. And I would like to have a little more length but less than an extended alpine. Routes I climb wander and go around a lot of roofs or protrusions. 

I do not recommend the black diamond dogbones. The Camp dogbones do a better job of holding i-beam carabiners in place so they are easier to clip. They are also lighter than the black diamonds. Get some 18cm and 25cm dyneema ones for trad. 

25cm dogbones with nanos have replaced most of my alpine draws (I still take 2 - 6 alpines) for trad. With a double rack on my harness having less alpine draws helps minimize tangles/clusters. It is also nice to be able to clip and go more quickly.  

+1 for Oz on the gearloop side of the draw. They handle beautifully and take up very little real estate. On an alpine draw, I'm not seeing much of a reason to have snagless on the rope end, but I do like the way they clip, and rack my cams on them. For some reason, I find them easier to manipulate than anything else with a comparable gate opening.

Heliums are an absolute joy to handle, but too big, heavy, and expensive to justify IMO--sort of a sport biner that nobody uses for sport. Using the Ange-S is like trying to play the ukulele with hooves. Miniwire is like the same Ukulele with heavy gauge steel strings.

I like the cypher dogbones, as well as their carabiniers. Cant really beat the price either

Big fan of the nano 22 and the dyon make for a great gear side biner. Bare in mind when using super skinny dyneema slings they will like to twist regardless as to weather they're a dog bone or not. I would recommend you have your draw have the shortest open loop width possible to increase stiffness of the draw. 

phylp phylp wrote:

Why dogbone at all?  Is it because of the rubber keeper?  You can buy those as separate units.  On some of my trad draws setups, I use runners of a few different lengths, fitted with a rubber keeper and a Petzl Ange L on the rope end.  

Hey Phylp--If I'm not mistaken, there is a clear failure mode with that set up.  There was a video a while back.  Basically, in your pack, on your rack, whatever, the carabiner can get clipped the wrong way.  It looks and feels like it's holding something but...you're not clipped into anything.  Check it out.

Bruno Schull wrote:

Hey Phylp--If I'm not mistaken, there is a clear failure mode with that set up.  There was a video a while back.  Basically, in your pack, on your rack, whatever, the carabiner can get clipped the wrong way.  It looks and feels like it's holding something but...you're not clipped into anything.  Check it out.

I appreciate your concern for myself and other people.

I believe you may be referring to the use of a rubber band on the rope end of an alpine sling.  Yes I have used that method in the past and yes I have seen the video.  I personally put that potential failure mode in the same category as other failure modes, such as not completing your rope tie-in to your harness correctly, or having the rope slip through your belay device and dropping your partner. It's a failure mode of inattention to your surroundings and your gear.  It's not personally a failure mode that I'm concerned about.  Maybe it's because in the past when all my quickdraws were made with sling tied with water knots, which would loosen, and you HAD to look at them every time, but I still look at my draws and every item on my trad rack every single time I rack up, before I leave the ground.

In the post above I am referring to a commercial rubber keeper.  The only accident I am aware of involving a quickdraw rubber keeper was the tragic fatal accident of the young teen when the adult, non-climber chaperones on the group youth trip failed to assemble an entire set of new quickdraws correctly.  When my rope-end biners wear out, or the runner is 8-10 years old and I'm replacing it, If I decide to use a rubber keeper, it takes me a good 5 minutes of struggling against the tightness of the keeper to install a new biner.  The failure mode you reference above would be exceedingly difficult to replicate with a commercial rubber keeper.  Again, even if it could happen, it's not a failure mode I am personally concerned about.

People should do what seems sensible to them.

Hi Phylp--that all sounds reasonable.  I was thinking about it today, and ruminating on difference betweenn a rubber band and a comerical keeper-thingy.  I agree that any problems seem highly unlikely, and may well be offset by the ease/effeciency of the sling with fixed biner. Just something that caught my eye.  All best, and happy climbing.

Plus 1 on the don't use rubber keepers or rubber bands thing. It is very easy to miss when it is a problem, particularly if using skinny dyneema that is being transitioned from alpine config to extended. I recommend considering sewn closed end long draws like the ones made by Metolius instead. I rack a couple of revolvers biners on those (which become pointless if flipped so the roller is on the draw side) so wanted to secure them and this was the best solution I found. 

+2 for no rubber keeper on open slings. 

Logan Peterson wrote:

+1 for Oz on the gearloop side of the draw. They handle beautifully...

agree on this, they are smooth as silk, though for people with large hands, Helium/DMM Trad Alpha are a bit more ergonomic.

Heliums are an absolute joy to handle, but too big, heavy, and expensive to justify IMO--sort of a sport biner that nobody uses for sport. Using the Ange-S is like trying to play the ukulele with hooves. Miniwire is like the same Ukulele with heavy gauge steel strings.

I will quibble with this. If the difference of 33g to 25g times 8-10 biners is what is keeping me from sending a route, I need to work on something, and it's not the weight of my gear.

Agree on Ange S being difficult, though I do love them for racking nuts on.

Hate to revive this thread but just wanted to add some thoughts I had since posting this. The 16 cm slings I thought I wanted don’t make sense since I want to reduce drag and an alpine configured like a quickdraw are about 18 cm so I could just use those, but the downside is it doesn’t have a rubber keeper on the rope side to make it easier to clip. Also the alpine can get messy with three strands. Second point the 25 cm slings seem like a happy medium between the alpine draw and extended alpine and would reduce drag and waking of cams and nuts. Maybe What I want and need is one 25, 20 and 18/16 cm quickdraw and then see what I use more of. Don’t think I’ll buy any more mini wires or small carabiners and go more with easy to use. Tried out the dyon and enjoyed it and the heliums look and feel good. Bought a rack pack of the oz hoodwire and don’t like em as much as the dyon. The ange are not for me and the chimera didn’t stand out to me. Thanks to everyone for their input and hopefully I can report back with a cool setup to show.