Chipping Isn't Okay Article/Insta

The article

I honestly think this article is trash, I also think the original Joes Valley Insta post wasn't the most thought out. When the original instagram post came out it seemed about 1 in 8 comments were advocating for violence. As it stands right now, it seems most these comments have been removed. I can't think of a situation where advocating for violence against an unknown party for an unknown crime is going to end well. But if your going to advocate violence over a rock in the woods, that is a much much larger issue than chipping.

The point of both the article and the insta post is to say chipping isn't okay. Both these sources fail miserably at actually demonstrating what a chipped hold looks like. As far as I can tell from this post, the existence of a rock scar indicates a chipped hold. There is absolutely no other evidence provided that the pictured hold is chipped. There is no comparison between a chipped hold and a rock scar. There isnt even a picture of what the hold used to look like. If you take the picture as an example of chipping, every single boulder at established crags is going to seem chipped, rock scars are everywhere.

As for Bisharts' article it calls into question his journalistic integrity. 

Most of the problems are around the V7-V9 grade, which leads one to suspect that these crimes are being committed by a single person. 

This is an absolutely insane conclusion. V7-v9 routes are probably the highest traffic and most detail understood routes at a bouldering area. Everyone will notice the slight differences in a hold. No one is going to notice different holds on a v3 and under. I don't even know why he said this, there isn't even a point. 

He then goes into this rant:

Let me digress a moment to address this individual, on the off-chance they’re reading this: Fuck you. V7 isn’t even impressive. It’s the beginner’s idea of a hard climb, and literally no one cares if you climb it. I climbed V7 within my first year as a complete gumby while wearing Tenayas. Why are you chipping V7s? Idiot. Seriously, fuck you, you entitled little scrotum-licking chud.

This is like saying if your man parts are only 5 inches long but with some angles and a little viagra it can be 7 inches long, that 7 inches isnt even impressive. If the person read the article they would be inclined to chip a v10.

I just think that if you are going to be an alarmist about chipping at least try when you write about it.

I didn't realize people thought Bisharat had any journalistic integrity in the first place.

T Dwrote:

I didn't realize people thought Bisharat had any journalistic integrity in the first place.

I didn't even know he was a journalist, I thought he wrote for climbing rags.

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

This is an absolutely insane conclusion. V7-v9 routes are probably the highest traffic and most detail understood routes at a bouldering area. Everyone will notice the slight differences in a hold. No one is going to notice different holds on a v3 and under. I don't even know why he said this, there isn't even a point. 

I‘ll start by saying that I think Bisharat‘s work is typically a piece of shit and agree with most of you said….with that said, I think his inference that an individual or an small individual group is behind this is pretty accurate. The climbs that have been altered are all within a certain “set” or “list” climbs that climbers tend to do together/during that point in their climbing.…not that any of that matters, like you said, there was no point to the article yet all us idiots click on the article link. There isn’t even any controversy with these chipping events, unlike previous ones lol 

I didn’t have much issue with the insta post that I recall…I was probably one of those people that posted something about violence on there too….jk   

Oh. Its Bouldering.

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

Probably the greatest downstream result of your constant inane posting and your unwillingness to be authentic in your responses to posts in your various irritating troll threads is that in this case, even though it might actually be fun and valuable to have a discussion with you about your assumptions regarding the point of why Bisharat said this, alas, I don't trust you enough to engage as an honest actor. I'd say "do better," but "wolf" has been cried too often, so I guess I'll just say "should have done better because it's too late now." 

Don't bother responding. 

Which is a downstream effect of no one ever actually wanting to discuss climbing! You can argue with JT! He agrees with me! I tried to engage in real threads on MP and no one actually wanted to discuss anything! Still the free solo with a rope thread and pants over harness are far far more successful threads than any thread about v17!

J T wrote:

I‘ll start by saying that I think Bisharat is a piece of shit and agree with most of you said 

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

Which is a downstream effect of no one ever actually wanting to discuss climbing! You can argue with JT! He agrees with me!

I don’t think you quite understand Kevin’s post….

 He agrees with me! I tried to engage in real threads on MP and no one actually wanted to discuss anything! 

People want to discuss things, typically they just don’t align with your ridiculous fake views and you “perceive” that as not wanting to discuss things.

Still the free solo with a rope thread and pants over harness are far far more successful threads than any thread about v17!

Your definition of successful is an odd one

Princess Puppy Lovr wrote:

Which is a downstream effect of no one ever actually wanting to discuss climbing! You can argue with JT! He agrees with me! I tried to engage in real threads on MP and no one actually wanted to discuss anything! Still the free solo with a rope thread and pants over harness are far far more successful threads than any thread about v17!

You measure success on MP threads?

Dan CO wrote:

Bisharat posts on his own blog and insta, you're welcome to unfollow/ignore it, whereas you and a handful of other bored 'climbers' in these threads feel the need to post what you think about everything, in useless shitposts like this and on everyone else's threads.  MP Forums could be useful sources of discussion and information but obnoxious bad actors make it insufferable and unusable for functioning adults.

The issue with MP is that any form of disagreement is implied to be bad actors regardless of how insane or mellow or normal the response is. The main reason I included bisharat was that I felt immediately if I had just posted about the insta post from Joes people would have brought up bisharat article. Since people love to discuss chipping, I have never seen a good picture of a chipped boulder problem (drilled pockets on established climbs I would categorize differently). 

Also the bisharat article is worth bringing up because he is egging on the chipping. The reason people chip is that they are seeking validation from their peers for sending a/the route. Bisharat doubles down on that stance, that v7 isnt impressive but that implies some v grade is. Instead if we foster an environment where having fun is central and sending is secondary, we might see less chipping. But with Bisharat and MP; an individuals' credibility to discuss rock climbing is assigned to the grade in which they climb. As long as this is a pervasive belief people will chip. 

Jordan Wilson wrote:

You measure success on MP threads?

In the sense that all my inane dumb ideas sit at the top of the forum while worthwhile ideas float to the bottom.

J T wrote:

I don’t think you quite understand Kevin’s post….

People want to discuss things, typically they just don’t align with your ridiculous fake views and you “perceive” that as not wanting to discuss things.

Your definition of successful is an odd one

My threads always seem to be sitting atop, and that is because people reply to them. For some reason people would rather discuss me and my posts over climbing content. You and Kevin have made the vary choice to spend some of your 6 daily posts on responding to this thread. So yes, yes you would rather talk about me than climbing.

I thought Bisharat had been cancelled several times already. I wouldn't take what he says too seriously, most mainstream climbing "Journalism" like this is pretty shit anyway (I don't read his writing, but I do follow the Runout podcast). 

And ya, if you're gonna put down people who post what they think about something, maybe don't reply with what you think about their "what I think about this" thread. 

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

My threads always seem to be sitting atop, and that is because people reply to them. For some reason people would rather discuss me and my posts over climbing content. You and Kevin have made the vary choice to spend some of your 6 daily posts on responding to this thread. So yes, yes you would rather talk about me than climbing.

I mean you are far more entertaining when I am stuck at work, yes. I’m not sure the rest is an accurate assessment though. Most of the time the forums start off with people disagreeing with whatever nonsense you post (like pants over harness) and you just always make it about you or something completely unrelated…similar to this very post (remember how my first post was relevant to the original topic and mostly in agreement with you and now you’ve made it about yourself again). You are one of, if not, the leading culprit in your threads getting derailed, leading to others not engaging and/or discussing anything…as outlined in Kevin’s post here. I’m not sure many would not call that “successful”   

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

My threads always seem to be sitting atop, and that is because people reply to them. For some reason people would rather discuss me and my posts over climbing content. You and Kevin have made the vary choice to spend some of your 6 daily posts on responding to this thread. So yes, yes you would rather talk about me than climbing.

probably due to comments like this…

Criticisms of PuppyLovr aside... Inflammatory Instagram posts that insight mob style frontier justice always make cringe.  There is almost always missing information/context.  These types of things typically don't lead to anything constructive.

I'll give you a non-climbing example to illustrate my point:  I'm part of a facebook group for my local neighborhood.  Half the people in my neighborhood have those ring cameras on their doors that watch you as you walk by their house (yea its annoying).  Anyways,, someone posted a video (in the fb group) of a lady walking a puppy by their house and in the video the puppy poops on the driveway and the lady walks away without picking it up.  In the comments of this post people were blasting the lady from the video and posting angry emojis.     Later we all learned that the lady in the video was in fact one of our neighbors and she was on the phone with the vet scheduling euthanization for her other older dog and hadn't noticed the poop.  She posted some emotional replies to the video, deleted them, then left the group.   The entire situation became much worse just because some folks couldn't help themselves and had to complain on social media. 

In the case of the chipping article,, I wonder if there isn't a more constructive way to address the issue than to make a post on social media (or perhaps a better way to target the post).  What if instead of posting, an email with the pictures was just sent to the local climbing advocacy group?  Or perhaps, instead of just being pissed about chipping, start a donation drive to the access fund so we can better educate people and include that in your social media post.  So much of this is just virtue signaling.

I actually commented on his site.  What I said is

t’s not the gyms or the lack of mentors.  The nature of contemporary sport climbing involves substantial modification of the natural scene.   Lines of bolts, loose rock pried off and trundled, flakes glued down tight, holds comfortized—routes are created by developers wielding hand and power tools.  The modern developer is a sculptor of the vertical, drilling a line of protection that makes otherwise blank rock into a climb. So is it such a big surprise that some folks will see ways to extend the sculpting metaphor to the holds themselves?  Seems natural to me, and not nearly as sociopathic as you make it sound Andrew.  The rules egregiously violated seem, in the current context, to be little more than subtle and arcane variations of what’s already allowed.

I’m not knocking sport climbing, just suggesting that embracing the genre entails consequences that are pretty predictable.

Aaron Waitwrote:

Criticisms of PuppyLovr aside... Inflammatory Instagram posts that insight mob style frontier justice always make cringe.  There is almost always missing information/context.  These types of things typically don't lead to anything constructive.

I'll give you a non-climbing example to illustrate my point:  I'm part of a facebook group for my local neighborhood.  Half the people in my neighborhood have those ring cameras on their doors that watch you as you walk by their house (yea its annoying).  Anyways,, someone posted a video (in the fb group) of a lady walking a puppy by their house and in the video the puppy poops on the driveway and the lady walks away without picking it up.  In the comments of this post people were blasting the lady from the video and posting angry emojis.     Later we all learned that the lady in the video was in fact one of our neighbors and she was on the phone with the vet scheduling euthanization for her other older dog and hadn't noticed the poop.  She posted some emotional replies to the video, deleted them, then left the group.   The entire situation became much worse just because some folks couldn't help themselves and had to complain on social media. 

In the case of the chipping article,, I wonder if there isn't a more constructive way to address the issue than to make a post on social media (or perhaps a better way to target the post).  What if instead of posting, an email with the pictures was just sent to the local climbing advocacy group?  Or perhaps, instead of just being pissed about chipping, start a donation drive to the access fund so we can better educate people and include that in your social media post.  So much of this is just virtue signaling.

  

Quit making sense….

 On a more serious note though I’m of the opinion that nothing short of catching them in the act is going to prevent them from chipping at this point. People who chip routes in this day and age know exactly what they are doing don’t give a hoot what any climbing advocacy says. 

Internet trolls and route chippers are cut from the same cloth - low effort, and self serving.

Andy Forquerwrote:

Internet trolls and route chippers are cut from the same cloth - low effort, and self serving.

Depends on the chipping. Chipping Louie style was high effort. Do you know how many drill bits and batteries it takes to make 4 glory jugs? Or how gluing on a jug would be $15.

James Woods wrote:

The chipper driller route manufacturing people know exactly what they're doing. The uneducated gym gumbies who support, encourage, and feed the egos of the manufacturers and their actions are also to blame. If you call outdoor route development "setting" this is probably you.

If anything the gumbies are the least likely to chip. First they climb in crowded areas. Second they don’t own a drill they probably don’t even know who bolts the routes. Generally the harder I climb the more pervasive route chipping is not less. I don’t know how they support people beyond climbing their routes?

rgoldwrote:

I actually commented on his site.  What I said is

t’s not the gyms or the lack of mentors.  The nature of contemporary sport climbing involves substantial modification of the natural scene.   Lines of bolts, loose rock pried off and trundled, flakes glued down tight, holds comfortized—routes are created by developers wielding hand and power tools.  The modern developer is a sculptor of the vertical, drilling a line of protection that makes otherwise blank rock into a climb. So is it such a big surprise that some folks will see ways to extend the sculpting metaphor to the holds themselves?  Seems natural to me, and not nearly as sociopathic as you make it sound Andrew.  The rules egregiously violated seem, in the current context, to be little more than subtle and arcane variations of what’s already allowed.

I’m not knocking sport climbing, just suggesting that embracing the genre entails consequences that are pretty predictable.

I agree. Mountain biking, skiing, skateboarding, dirt biking all have progressed to manufacturing their terrain to be more cutting edge.

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

I agree. Mountain biking, skiing, skateboarding, dirt biking all have progressed to manufacturing their terrain to be more cutting edge.

Eh, you're not wrong, but for skateboarding and bmx, it's also complicated. There's a split between park and street (and additionally dirt for bmx) which is not really the same as the split between trad, sport, gym and bouldering in climbing, but you get an idea of the vibes.

For park, vert, and ramp riding, absolutely manufacturing the terrain is part of the progression. Somewhat similar to gym climbing with "cutting edge" routesetting. 

Street skating and street BMX (maybe ironically) is actually the more "trad" discipline. You are supposed to travel far and wide to discover hidden "natural" gems in the "natural environment" and do "first ascents" (aka NBD's or 'never been done') using the terrain as it lies, except in this case the natural environment is actually the artificial urban environment. There are famous spots that have been unchanged or little changed for decades that are regarded as testpieces. If you went and 'improved' a famous spot, absolutely the reaction would be similar to chipping a route. As well, "creating" street skating spots can be controversial e.g. see  this well-known skateboarding youtuber nerd out on the controversy over Steve Berra's fake spots.

Hilariously as well, the expected response time of building security is factored into the difficulty of a skate spot as part of the 'natural difficulty', you get less attempts before you get kicked out, it makes it harder. 

Bolting IS chipping.

Tradibanwrote:

Bolting IS chipping.

Just to get this thread a few more pages, what about pitons? 

Sam Mwrote:

Street skating and street BMX (maybe ironically) is actually the more "trad" discipline. You are supposed to travel far and wide to discover hidden "natural" gems in the "natural environment" and do "first ascents" (aka NBD's or 'never been done') using the terrain as it lies, except in this case the natural environment is actually the artificial urban environment. There are famous spots that have been unchanged or little changed for decades that are regarded as testpieces. If you went and 'improved' a famous spot, absolutely the reaction would be similar to chipping a route. As well, "creating" street skating spots can be controversial e.g. see  this well-known skateboarding youtuber nerd out on the controversy over Steve Berra's fake spots.

Hilariously as well, the expected response time of building security is factored into the difficulty of a skate spot as part of the 'natural difficulty', you get less attempts before you get kicked out, it makes it harder. 

I think the ethic I was more eluding to is that many sports are totally artificial in the creation of famous features but if you went and messed with the feature after publication people would be really really pissed. I recall there is a feature ?brooklyn stairs? where the school added chips to a rail so it could not be grind. Also I think if someone messed with chads gap in skiing people would not be psyched. I think chipping in climbing will make a comeback/already has made a comeback. No one in Washington seems to take issue with the entirely manufactured 12s-14s in northbend/vantage/spokane/?rat cave. The simple reality is that when your cranking on tiny holds up a steep but chossy wall and one or two holds break, people would rather have a climbable route than an unclimbable piece of stone to look at. At the end of the day, I just like to rock climb; I think most people just like to rock climb. I think everyone also agrees that we want our climbs to remain the same. However this form of chipping is far different than the alleged joes valley incident. The joes valley incident is more like doing performance enhancing drugs than it is like what Louie was doing. 

Tradibanwrote:

Bolting IS chipping.

Sure!

James woods I have no idea what you mean by support.

Also you guys dont have to engage with me. Feel free to talk about the topic ignoring me entirely!