Fatal accident in Jtree.

Marc. I was not talking to brad I was talking to you who declared that tat was cool for back country climbs but not front country climbs.  I don't buy that. If its a bolted anchor it should be equipped with metal not nylon. No excuses.  I get walk off and all the other excuses but if its a two bolt anchor  put 4 screw links on em and we will never have this conversation. 

You implied that it was accepted.  Obviously we all need to make smart decisions and back up the tat. that being said we should also strive to eliminate the tat. tat is Fugly.

Ruben Flores wrote:

Can someone explain to me why someone would chop a mussy hook that someone installed to make lowering off a climb safer? Certainly there must be a well thought out logic behind that.

Is it one or two people? Or is there a large group of people?  

Because there are dogmatic kooks out there who want to impose their "traditional" style on others.. I'm assuming their reasoning is that if the climb can be walked off, there's no reason to place mussy hooks, quick links, or chains. In their view the bolts can be used for the anchor and the last person to go up can walk off. It's idiotic and not well thought out, but I think that's their justification. 

Nick Goldsmith wrote:

Marc. I was not talking to brad I was talking to you who declared that tat was cool for back country climbs but not front country climbs.  I don't buy that. If its a bolted anchor it should be equipped with metal not nylon. No excuses.  I get walk off and all the other excuses but if its a two bolt anchor  put 4 screw links on em and we will never have this conversation. 

I never said it was “cool,” I said it’s prevalent. Considering that, it’s important that climbers to be prepared to make their descents safer.

This is a really sad accident.  From what others have said in this thread, Tina sounded plenty experienced enough to know if the tat was getting old.  I’ve also seen a lot of new tat get cut when quick draws are put on top of the webbing and then people top rope or lower on the draws.  This sort of wear can be a lot harder to quickly notice as the webbing cuts on the spot that isn’t visible.  I’ve seen plenty of very experienced climbers fail to check for this sort of wear.  I have no direct knowledge of the exact mode of failure in this accident so the above is just a general thought and reminder to check every piece of webbing you rap off of.

I personally hate anchors that rely on any sort of webbing.  It would be my very last option while installing the anchor.  Often when I come across an anchor that has webbing I’ll try and re rig it so the webbing is just a backup.  Assuming the bolts are in good shape I just put the quicklink/ring directly on one bolt and then use the webbing to connect the hangers.  The anchor is no longer equalized but generally speaking a single bolt is gonna be stronger than any piece of webbing tied through a hanger.  The second bolt just acts as a backup now.  I think the Euro style vertical anchor are far superior for this reason.  I tried to find a pic but couldn’t  come up with anything good.  But when the bolts are more in line it makes it easy to tie the hangers together and have a single quicklink on the bottom hanger.  This type of anchor should make everyone happy.  Those that insist on using webbing and those that just want a metal lower off.  The old American way of building anchors is obsolete in my opinion and should have been updated when we went from 1/4” bolts to 3/8”.  

Again sorry to those that knew and climbed with Tina.  Hope you will be able to cherish the memories you had with her.

This is a tragic accident that has rightfully caused us to reconsider some of our safety practices and values as to style, booty, etc.  But blaming a volunteer LCC with zero control over individuals' practices, theft, or a perceived culture against modern hardware is misplaced and uninformed.  

Dave Kosmal is exactly correct.

But, in the hotbed of ignorant opinion that is prevalent on MP (or the Internet for that matter) facts don't always hold sway.

This was a terrible, terrible accident. Life is precious and fragile.

Dave Kosmal wrote:

I don’t want to get into a back-and-forth with you on this thread, but you are still propagating misinformation that could be dangerous. Your position is based on speculation and myths.

There are no “powers that be” in Joshua Tree that have any significant control over the quality of fixed hardware. The park service makes regulations but generally does not touch bolts. The LCC has no power at all aside from permission from the park service to do bolt replacement. Neither has the resources to comprehensively inspect, maintain, or even know about, all the routes and bolts in the park.

There is no evidence or reports that rings, hooks, or other permanent lowering hardware ever existed on the route in question. Although theft does happen, we know that chopped bolts or stolen hooks had nothing to do with this accident.

Top anchor bolts without rings or hooks are common in Joshua Tree for many reasons, most often because such hardware was not available or used at the time the FA was done. Blaming the FA party for their choices made, likely thirty years ago or more, is pointless and unproductive.

The LCC has added new bolts and rings on many routes, but the LCC is in no way obligated to add rings to every route, or any route. They do it as a public service on their own time, with hardware from donations. 

We all know that there are better ways to do anchors these days but anyone that climbs in Joshua Tree (and most trad crags) should know that the anchors are what they are, and none of us can expect or demand they be changed without making the effort ourselves. The “powers that be” do not exist and are not going to take care of all the routes for us, every time. It’s up to us.

I cannot speak for Tina, but I do know that she had many friends, including those that contributed much time and effort maintain hardware in the park. I am confident that the last thing she would want to happen as an outcome of her accident was dismantling the organization that works so hard to prevent similar tragedies.

I admit I dont know the ins and outs of the lco/lcc in JTree, but I do know that they have a voice, and if the leaders of that organization didn't stand up to those removing links/chain/lower offs/etc, as soon as that began, then yes they are part of the problem, regardless of how much good they do or effort they put in. Maybe they've publicly admonished this behavior, and if so, then my posts have been out of line, but if this has been a regular practice for years, then I highly doubt they have. 

If I sat back and watched the practice of people regularly stealing fixed gear off of climbs, to promote "classical ethics", while I was in a leadership role, and then this happened, I would resign and publicly state that I failed in my duties to promote proper stewardship of the hardware on the land I was overseeing, and did not do enough to encourage developers to stop adding soft goods to fixed gear in the desert. I hope im wrong, like you say, but I know that our local Coalition refuses to take a public stance on anything regarding vandalism or tampering with established routes, so maybe I'm just upset and discouraged that people with influence and power do little to nothing to discourage behavior that endangers the entire climbing community. 

Dude, first rule when you are way down in a hole is to quit digging...

Matthew Jaggers wrote:

I admit I dont know the ins and outs of the lco/lcc in JTree, but I do know that they have a voice, and if the leaders of that organization didn't stand up to those removing links/chain/lower offs/etc, as soon as that began, then yes they are part of the problem, regardless of how much good they do or effort they put in. Maybe they've publicly admonished this behavior, and if so, then my posts have been out of line, but if this has been a regular practice for years, then I highly doubt they have. 

If I sat back and watched the practice of people regularly stealing fixed gear off of climbs, to promote "classical ethics", while I was in a leadership role, and then this happened, I would resign and publicly state that I failed in my duties to promote proper stewardship of the hardware on the land I was overseeing, and did not do enough to encourage developers to stop adding soft goods to fixed gear in the desert. I hope im wrong, like you say, but I know that our local Coalition refuses to take a public stance on anything regarding vandalism or tampering with established routes, so maybe I'm just upset and discouraged that people with influence and power do little to nothing to discourage behavior that endangers the entire climbing community. 

The anchor likely never had chains, webbing on hangers is just the old school way of saving some cash. 

Tradiban wrote:

The anchor likely never had chains, webbing on hangers is just the old school way of saving some cash. 

My point exactly

Matthew Jaggers wrote:

I admit I dont know the ins and outs of the lco/lcc in JTree, but I do know that they have a voice, and if the leaders of that organization didn't stand up to those removing links/chain/lower offs/etc, as soon as that began, then yes they are part of the problem, regardless of how much good they do or effort they put in. Maybe they've publicly admonished this behavior, and if so, then my posts have been out of line, but if this has been a regular practice for years, then I highly doubt they have. 

If I sat back and watched the practice of people regularly stealing fixed gear off of climbs, to promote "classical ethics", while I was in a leadership role, and then this happened, I would resign and publicly state that I failed in my duties to promote proper stewardship of the hardware on the land I was overseeing, and did not do enough to encourage developers to stop adding soft goods to fixed gear in the desert. I hope im wrong, like you say, but I know that our local Coalition refuses to take a public stance on anything regarding vandalism or tampering with established routes, so maybe I'm just upset and discouraged that people with influence and power do little to nothing to discourage behavior that endangers the entire climbing community. 

Mathew I also get upset when I see people with power do nothing to discourage dangerous behavior :/

That said, are you sure that’s what’s happened here with any level of certainty?  In your posts, I see a whole lot of “I don’t knows” and “if this/then that” 

Maybe we could start by asking J Tree locals to share with us their experiences and perspectives?

I’m sure they are also navigating a lot of feelings around this.

From what I’m gathering, this accident was not the result of someone stealing a mussy hook.  Am I missing something?

I also feel sad and powerless at this accident and wish I could find some sense to it, or someone to blame, but I don’t know if maybe isn’t better to start with curiosity and and openness to learn what happened and what we could do differently as climbers and as organizations.

This is a tragic accident and my heart goes out to Tina's friends and family.  I can't imagine how this feels.

It's likely too late to save this thread from the accident analysis and the "LCC" analysts.  I'd prefer to do this elsewhere, but our community seems driven to override these threads with analysis.

Here are a few thoughts:

* Mussy Hooks have a specific purpose, and likely have no reason to be in Josh.  If there are reasons they are very rare.

* Many assumptions have been made on this anchor.  The biggest leap is that this was "fixed rappel anchor" with slings.  Many two bolts anchors/trees/boulders etc. get fixed webbing/cord/etc. because climbers for some reason don't want to walk off.  My personal biggest reason is my toes hurt.  Others are it is too complex, too scary, etc.  I have seen climbs in JT that have webbing placed what I would consider unnecessary rappels for reasons I don't understand.  There is no reason to support these.  Is that the reason for this one? I have no idea.

*  Again, many anchors at Josh are just not viable for rappel.  They are "over the cap", high friction, and just assumed not to be necessary.  There may be another anchor that is more appropriate, but that doesn't stop someone from "helpfully" making the anchor a rap anchor.

* So 10K routes at Josh is quoted endlessly; its likely true, and that a lot of routes.  Whenever you get off the beaten path you have to be ready for anything.  I mean, a route that isn't on MP is pretty obscure.  I don't have my Bartlett guides at hand, but Vogel's 92 guide has the climb, but is very slim on info.  The area is compressed ( meaning descriptions are poor, including descents, etc. ).   My point here is that I'd guess a sketchy situation in general.  I've broken hangers on similar routes in Josh, and seen 1/4" bolts halfway out of the rock.  You can't sleep on obscure routes there.

* For all the venom directed at "tat", the last accident I can remember was in Arizona and it was over 10 years ago.  I admit that I really don't follow accidents, and I don't get AINA yearly anymore ( if its still a thing ).   There is a lot of it out there, there will continue to be, and if you want to be self supporting, you'll have to deal with it at some point in your climbing.  I just did a rappel in Red Rock and it was a fixed nut, a bong in a hole, and a thread with an incomprehensible amount of tat.  I spent more than a few seconds looking at it, and this was a rappel for multiple trade routes.

* A friend of mine just told me again tonight " two is one and one is none".  A single piece of webbing can never be relied on in this situation.  A single ring is also suspect.  Many climbers carry a quicklink or tied piece of webbing for this very purpose; to back up this situation.  It's crazy how often someone will think $15 is worth the danger.

Again, this is all in response to people, some who admittedly have never climbed in the park.  I'd prefer to break off all this analysis into another thread.

Any time a vibrant soul belonging to our community is gone, we all lose.

Pay attention out there people....

bryans wrote:

most people don't start up single pitch routes with new webbing on their harness just in case the anchor is nothing but old tat.

Well we should, especially if we're climbing on routes with unknown anchors. It doesn't take much to carry a rap ring, a quick link, or a leaver carabiner plus some webbing, a piece of cordage, or spare long slings. Depending on what soft goods you carry, practice your double fisherman's and/or your water knot, too. I'm always surprised by how easy it is for me to mess up knots that I don't practice.

All condolences to Tina's friends and family, those on scene, and the first responders. I did not know Tina, but I am so sad this happened. For one moment's miscalculation, a bright light has gone out.

If an anchor sucks just leave gear. Gas is six bucks a gallon, going climbing is already expensive - what’s a pair of wire gates worth to you? 

L Kap wrote:

Well we should, especially if we're climbing on routes with unknown anchors. It doesn't take much to carry a rap ring, a quick link, or a leaver carabiner plus some webbing, a piece of cordage, or spare long slings. Depending on what soft goods you carry, practice your double fisherman's and/or your water knot, too. I'm always surprised by how easy it is for me to mess up knots that I don't practice.

All condolences to Tina's friends and family, those on scene, and the first responders. I did not know Tina, but I am so sad this happened. For one moment's miscalculation, a bright light has gone out.

if you lead to the top of a route with just draws, and see some bullshit rap anchor built on good bolts you could lower on your own draws, grab a junky sling or some cord, TR the route and fix something you'd trust your life to. Sorry to hera about Tina; we've all taken our chances with rats nests of old cord and web, some times it just don't work out :/

L Kap wrote:

Well we should, especially if we're climbing on routes with unknown anchors.

Doesn't matter, you can haul whatever you need on a route you can rap with what you have.  Pull up your partners least favorite gear and leave it.

Greg Davis wrote:

If an anchor sucks just leave gear. Gas is six bucks a gallon, going climbing is already expensive - what’s a pair of wire gates worth to you? 

Boomers have a bunch of REI D's.  Doesn't matter how much it costs really.

Matthew Jaggers wrote:

I admit I dont know the ins and outs of the lco/lcc in JTree, but I do know that they have a voice, and if the leaders of that organization didn't stand up to those removing links/chain/lower offs/etc, as soon as that began, then yes they are part of the problem, regardless of how much good they do or effort they put in. Maybe they've publicly admonished this behavior, and if so, then my posts have been out of line, but if this has been a regular practice for years, then I highly doubt they have. 

If I sat back and watched the practice of people regularly stealing fixed gear off of climbs, to promote "classical ethics", while I was in a leadership role, and then this happened, I would resign and publicly state that I failed in my duties to promote proper stewardship of the hardware on the land I was overseeing, and did not do enough to encourage developers to stop adding soft goods to fixed gear in the desert. I hope im wrong, like you say, but I know that our local Coalition refuses to take a public stance on anything regarding vandalism or tampering with established routes, so maybe I'm just upset and discouraged that people with influence and power do little to nothing to discourage behavior that endangers the entire climbing community. 

Joshua Tree is currently developing a climbing management plan.  I recommend you getting a little informed on the mgmt plan and participating in the public commenting parts.

bryans wrote: I guess I am saying drop 2 bolts where the 5.9 turns to 5.2, even if that means a lower anchor below those trad anchor spots, and yes you'd see them from the road - just like you'd see the road, the sprinter vans, the hammocks, the tents, the hula hoops, the rest of it. I don't think the visual impact of 2 bolts are really the issue here, and I think you agree.

No, I don't. The visual and experiential impact of retro-anchoring a bunch of routes that are best walked off would be substantial. If the walkoff involves 5.5 downclimbing with consequences (as in, not a secure chimney), then slap a couple of discreet rap hangers out of sight on the walkoff. What you're proposing would significantly change the character and style of climbing there. 

Regarding beefing tat anchors as a temporary measure: it should be common sense to use 6mm cord or 9/16" webbing to secure your chalkbag (if you use one). That way you always have cheap cordage available to back up old softgoods.

Gumby King wrote:

Joshua Tree is currently developing a climbing management plan.  I recommend you getting a little informed on the mgmt plan and participating in the public commenting parts.

I will for sure. Ive hounded our lcc to make public stances against devious activities in the Red, and the only thing they've said is they can't because of liability concerns, and I simply can't accept that as truth. Publicly stating that theft and vandalism will not be tolerated, including consequences for those caught, has nothing to do with claiming liability for fixed gear, and would create a better situation for everyone in the community, sans all the Snyder types who get off on stealing gear and destroying the work of others.