Does the send count if you take on a screw?

We're already aid climbing so I wasn't sure where or how to draw the distinction

In my mind if I say I sent something, it means no falls no takes. You can define it as you wish.

Who cares

Once when soloing a short (30+/-ft) column which ended at a bulge, I placed a screw where the bulge reared back.

The bulge was thinly veneered, so my options were whack away and hope something sticks before it all peels off or place a screw and use it as a handhold.

 I think I did the right thing. Aid? French free? Shitting bricks and scared I was gonna die? Yes.

I’d count it. Also raises the question of whether you’d count it if you clipped a tool and hung on that (I would). As said, it’s all aid.

Ice  climbing is alpine  rules.  Anything  to get to the top safely.  I wouldn't  however  use the  term  send  as that  term  usually  indicates a  clean ascent.  

I'll just come out and say it. No.

does the screw count if you take on a send? does the send take if you count on a screw? does the send scew if you count on a take? does anyone here speak english?

No

Only if it's consensual, otherwise NO!

Short answer: No.  

long answer:  Yes, ice climbing is a different animal to some degree, but only with the introduction of larger more expensive intermediate implements between you and the climbing medium all designed to increase friction so you don’t slip off.   Substitute axe and crampons for Chalk, tape, and rubber shoes…and all can be considered a type of aid (call it type 1 aid - friction aid) but you are responsible for supporting your Weight.   Actual AID climbing  (class 6) supports your WEIGHT (type 2aid) generally through your harness  

So, BITD with leashes, it was much more gray and “aid-like”.    Modern leashless is now much more like rock climbing.  You’re just traveling with your holds.  

SO….within the context of ice climbing, a rope over a tool (that took some weight), hanging from a screw, weighting a tether/umbilical etc etc turns it into an aid climb and takes away the free ascent.  

Whether anyone cares is a separate issue and question.  I don’t think anyone “really cares”, but many, just as in any form of climbing, generally at least take mental note and try to climb it in better style next time.  It’s should be acknowledged that as in rock, full naked free solo is the ultimate style, and even more so for ice!

Better than falling and stabbing yourself with one of the many pointy things on your body. Ice climbing is aid climbing as it is so I don’t really think its that important to send without resting on gear if not doing so means danger. The point of ice tools is to make climbing frozen water fast and easy, its not like there is a huge style driven climbing ethic around ice and grades are based off the steepness and thickness of the ice, not the difficulty per se. Mixed routes however are given a grade based on the difficulty of climbing the route using your tools and crampons (tools have to be a certain size for the send to count) without any other gear as aid. Did you send the route if you sat on a screw? If your belayer took, no, if you just clipped into a tool or screw with a pas or other method of going in direct, id say the send still counts. but I think getting up it safely is way more of an accomplishment than climbing without sitting on gear. 

Isn’t the answer, “no, but why are you trying to ‘send’ ice?” Aside from it all being aid anyway, every route is a different route from season to season, month to month, sometimes even temperature to temperature. I’ve “sent” WI5 when it was WI3, so what did I really “send?” I don’t think it’s a safe/replicable enough activity yet for things like sending.

I think some of you are confused about what “aid” means versus free climbing, as well as differences in points of style.  

If the rope or webbing, via any equipment (screw, axe, bolt, cam, beak, whatever) supported your weight, you didn’t get it free.  It was aid.  Simple  

It’s a gray area whether the rubber and shape of say a TC Pro in a granite crack is less “aidy” than crampons on ice, or that a chalked up rock “bucket” is more/less difficult to hold onto barehanded than a Nomic handle with a glove…

It also no question that getting out of control in the danger zone and taking a fall with injuries for ego driven reasons is the poorest of all styles.  

 If you can’t do it free, do it safely.   This is the epitome and meaning of “climbed without difficulty, no send”  lol

What you “sent” is not what a guide book says, it’s what you climbed.  Again, none of this matters, nobody is keeping score at home.  it only matters theoretically in campfire discussions of what you did and how, should you even care enough to bring it up

the only time it really counts is on FA's. any other time its just a silly rule. Ice climbing do Not fall. take a fcking hang, shake out and get to the top and home safely. but you didn't send. Sending is crushing and hiking it totally clean. You survived and got up the thing ;) 

Here's a scenario that I'm wondering about:

What if you're on the ascent and a climber above you on an adjacent line is being lowered, and while being lowered kicks down ice and spin-drift on you and you have to take on a screw because you can't see.  You clear your face/glasses and continue on. Would that negate the Send?  

Are you seriously wondering about that or are you just beating the old nag that’s already collapsed at the watering trough?

edit:  Just to play along, in case you’re serious, I’m gonna ask “why did you have to take?”   Stop, let it pass, climb on.  You made the choice to climb with others above you….it’s unfortunate, but no “send”for you if you rested on the rope/gear.  It’s not a question of wisdom or prudence, it’s just a simple physics question of where your weight is.   Not getting the technical “send” may very well be the smartest course of action.  

My rules for all types of climbing:

1. Don't harm/destroy the resource

2. Don't endanger others 2a. or if at all possible negatively impact their experience

3. Be honest about what you did and how you did it.  

How others label it is small beer as the Brits would say.  

James Scully wrote:

Here's a scenario that I'm wondering about:

What if you're on the ascent and a climber above you on an adjacent line is being lowered, and while being lowered kicks down ice and spin-drift on you and you have to take on a screw because you can't see.  You clear your face/glasses and continue on. Would that negate the Send?  

“I was French freeing my way up this choss pile when I knocked off a block. This altered the climb, and also upset some bees. So I clovehitched into my piece. Should I be worried about having my screen actor’s guild membership revoked since I’m not trained as a rigger?”

“Sending” is from another activity with different goals, imho. If someone goes inverted on a crack climb, did they perform a bicycle kick from soccer? Seems like only kinda and only by analogy.

To quote the Soup Nazi’s second cousin, who lives in a small village near Mt. Damavand and often guides climbers up the icy slopes of said peak:

”No send for you! Back of the line!”

EDIT: Who cares… just try and do it in better style next time and don’t fib about how you did it. (“Vy kant vee choost Klime! —Anon from Austria)

It's not aid. Its free aid.