Dedicated PAS or sling?

I was wondering if anyone using slings for a PAS in sport climbing, how well does it work? I personally have a Metolious PAS and I love that thing, but I have been asked about using slings for the same purpose. I know that most tie a overhand about half way in the sling to create a “shelf” but this does limit the strength to know about 40-50% now and unlike a PAS chain you only have really two options as a shelf.

So my question is can you tie multiple knots on a sling to create multiple “shelf’s” like a PAS chain? Or does this literally take away the entire strength of that sling? 

General rule of thumb is that a knot cuts the rated strength in half.  For most slings thats taking something from ~5,000 lbs to ~2,500 lbs, which is still more than enough for a personal tether that should only see body weight.  Additional knots do not continue to halve the strength.  

I switch between tying in with the rope, using slings/ draws, or using the petzl connect adjust.  Depends on the climbing.  For a day of sport climbing, I usually just use a quickdraw or two while threading the rope for a lower.  

Diego Bwrote:

I was wondering if anyone using slings for a PAS in sport climbing, how well does it work? I personally have a Metolious PAS and I love that thing, but I have been asked about using slings for the same purpose. I know that most tie a overhand about half way in the sling to create a “shelf” but this does limit the strength to know about 40-50% now and unlike a PAS chain you only have really two options as a shelf.

So my question is can you tie multiple knots on a sling to create multiple “shelf’s” like a PAS chain? Or does this literally take away the entire strength of that sling? 

Yes, you can tie multiple knots in a sling. Even with multiple knots, it will be more than strong enough as a rap sling/tether. But why do that when you can just use a PAS? For either one, avoid falling on it from above the anchor. Neither one should see more than bodyweight.

A knotted sling has more than enough strength to be a suitable anchor. I do like having a few slings when sport climbing to extend wandering bolts and reduce rope drag. A double length sling is also useful for aiding through hard cruxes if you don't want to bail. 

I typically don’t like things that serve only one purpose, so I use just a sling. It’s multifunctional. I’m 100lbs, I’m sure won’t generate enough force to rip through a sling with a knot in it. 

That said, I don’t climb much sport and I also hate how bulky the PAS and similar devices are. A sling you can just fold and store on your gear loop until needed. I can totally see how a PAS is useful though. 

Ry Cwrote:

I typically don’t like things that serve only one purpose, so I use just a sling. It’s multifunctional. I’m 100lbs, I’m sure won’t generate enough force to rip through a sling with a knot in it. 

That said, I don’t climb much sport and I also hate how bulky the PAS and similar devices are. A sling you can just fold and store on your gear loop until needed. I can totally see how a PAS is useful though. 

If you have a PAS with full-strength loops, that is an extra sling. Or you can build an anchor with it. So it's not single-purpose. It is basically an extra sling, except you don't have to put knots in it.

Frank I thought you were supposed to nip these repetitive threads in the bud.

Daniel Chode Riderwrote:

Frank I thought you were supposed to nip these repetitive threads in the bud.

Daniel, I must be slacking. Going soft in my old age. I apologize. Deeply and insincerely!

Accepted, with an insufficient modicum of grace.

FrankPSwrote:

If you have a PAS with full-strength loops, that is an extra sling. Or you can build an anchor with it. So it's not single-purpose. It is basically an extra sling, except you don't have to put knots in it.

Fair enough. 

The good thing about a dedicated PAS is that you can hang your radio off it. The only downside is it kind of gets in the way when I tie in with a bowline. 

So real quick here, tying multiple knots in a sling does not further reduce it’s strength than tying a single knot?

I've used both. They both work. 

What do you need the shelf for?  If this is single pitch sport I think most people use two draws to clip their belay loop to the anchor bolts.  That is what I do.  I use the PAS for multipitch.  

I use a sling for both sport and trad and replace it every couple of years (sooner if it shows wear) I have occasionally taken it off and used it as an Alpine draw

It's a bit tangential, but it seems worth linking to this great ACC article, which describes a standard and simple way to convert to lower at an anchor, without any specialized tools or extra redundant connections, while staying on belay the whole time:

https://americanalpineclub.org/resources-blog/2016/3/15/5ipkouk0id07cgc3dqks4fljnsgnx6

This process simplifies things quite a bit, and make make a PAS or dedicated sling tether unnecessary for the majority of single pitch sport climbing situations.

Diego Bwrote:

So real quick here, tying multiple knots in a sling does not further reduce it’s strength than tying a single knot?

No, definitely not.

A knot reduces the strength of a sling, because the material in the knot is bent and squeezed n a way that makes it less strong.  However, that knot doesn't make unaffected material one foot away any weaker; the rest of the sling is still the original strength, with one small area that is 50% (or whatever) the strength.  If you tie multiple knots, you have multiple areas that are 50% the strength of the original strength, but it doesn't accumulate or anything like that.

 I am asking this partly because I have some friends that want to get into multipitch and they were wondering what some options are to use as a PAS. I like my PAS but, I don’t think they want to pay $40 for a single piece of sling. I guess I also never did realize you can basically make a PAS out of a sling by adding knots creating shelf’s.

A PAS is not necessary for multipitch.  You can easily connect to the anchor using the climbing rope and a clove hitch, it is pretty much the standard method.  The climbing rope is strong, dynamic, and can be adjusted to any length you need.

Multipitch rappelling generally requires some kind of tether, in which case a sling or a PAS will suffice.

I’d recommend some additional multipitch training, based on these questions, be it from YouTube, books, a guide, a climbing club, whatever.  Do be careful to verify accuracy and that the information you’re using is up to current industry standards.

https://www.alpinesavvy.com/rappel

https://www.alpinesavvy.com/blog/the-extended-rappel-explained

Your friends definitely don't need to spend $40 on a one-trick-pony. Sling will be just fine.

I just use draws for sport climbing, you generally don't need a sling for 99% of sport climbing.