Categorizing Choss

With all the threads glorifying loose rock, and my personal goal of embracing the risk and danger of climbing, I thought it would be a good time to crowdsource ideas for a system of categorizing choss, a choss grading system if you will. There are so many types of choss, from grainy J Tree slabs to killer alpine death blocks, and I think we could use a system that captures both the physical scale of the loose rock as well as the difficulty or danger it poses. 

For the first part, something like this https://www.mountainproject.com/route/106085208/tom-thumbs-tallywag would rate very high, since the whole formation might fall over. Loose grainy J Tree granite would be on the opposite end, because although the entire thing is loose, no part is bigger than your fingernail. 

As for the danger or difficulty choss posses, I am not sure how to map that onto a single scale. I think we need to distinguish between loose rock that you are required to actually pull/stand on, versus exposure to rockfall from rock that is off route. I think the first metric of the system will encompass the danger of rockfall to the party, but perhaps a third category is required to show how much the choss affects getting adequate protection. For instance, a sport route with loose holds between solid bolts (new routes at Smith Rock) is different than a loose trad climb where everything is suspect (like Ship Rock at Smith).

Feedback, ideas, comments are welcome! Let's figure this out!

Since it's so unique to each route, I think this can be done on a case by case basis.  Here's some things I use to describe choss in order of not a big deal to oh shit.  

Size of rock: kitty litter, baseballs, dinner plates, baby heads, microwaves, refrigerators

Proximity: no solid rock for gear, need to stand on/pull on something you are wary about, avoidable for humans (but not for ropes), everything you stand on moves

Likelihood of falling: nothing comes down when you pull the ropes, pull down (not out) when using blocks/holds,  be prepared to tuck in and use your helmet when pulling ropes, your partner will pepper you regardless of what they do, WTF are we climbing this?, avoid placing gear because it's useless and will just pull blocks down

another consideration is if the ascent line follows the rappel line.  

Thanks for the fun thing to think about!

You're going to need another top-of-the-scale category for this:

I propose a system such as the above. Lawful choss is continuous, and more importantly expected. Chaotic choss is, well, chaotic, unexpected.  A block that everyone knows is going to come off at *some point* not but sure when is chaotic. Good to evil is the level of risk involved. If you are required to use the chaos block complete the climb, that is evil. 

(I really should be working.)

Ch1; minor looseness, pebbles, be careful with holds etc

Ch2; significant loose sections, large belayer endangering blocks even with helmets, but still reasonable with some care.

Ch3; thinking like troll wall style choss. Boulder sized rock fall somewhat likely, dangerous in general.

Ch4; the real loose stuff, maybe some blocks but thinking like mud, pinnacles style rock, or anything where every move is liable to rip large rock falls. 

Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk. This is now gospel and anyone who disagrees is wrong. To prevent grade creep everything starts at Ch1 until there is a recordable incident. Go forth with this new system and change the world. 

To prevent grade creep everything starts at Ch1 until there is a recordable incident. 

But this would end up with a rating system where well climbed routes would inevitably be graded higher than a second ascent mountaineering chossventure. 

This brought a tear to my face. Anyway the age of the choss is also important. I would contend any choss pile that has been climbed into oblivion is probably comparable to relatively “good” rock routes. Something like a extremely high traffic vantage probably has the same chance of holds breaking as a new leavenworth route. So something that looks and was an absolute pile can be bomber af.

I tend to differentiate between inter-choss and intra-choss. Interchoss is when the rocks are solid but not connected to one another (think third pillar of Dana, Cannon Cliff, etc.) Intrachoss is when the rock itself is big but not solid (jtree, lots of sandstone, sketchy conglomerate. You know)

It may be less complicated to catagorize the individuals who climb choss.

https://www.mountainproject.com/route/121289529/the-big-lie

Here’s a CH2-3 adventure. Totally solid until it’s not