It probably doesn't matter but...ATC alpine vs. reverso?

Hey,

Going to get another belay device for alpine scrambling; something that will handle skinner ropes (8mm twins or, one day, an 8.6-8.9 single) instead of using two biners on atc. I was going to grab the ATC alpine but then noticed that the reverso has the same specs (8.5 single, 7.1/7.3 half, 6.9 twins) but is 16g lighter (73g versus the 57g)!

Checked previous discussions and one thread has the reverso not biting skinnier ropes as well as the alpine atc but another said they're the same. I realize 16g is virtually nothing, but in context, BD c4s vs. ultralights for #2 and #3 are 14g difference and are more expensive/worth a thread so I figure 16g here is worth thinking about...maybe not though...

Does the reverso work just as well as alpine atc for skinner ropes? Uses will be: protecting harder moves (5.7ish) when pitching out sections of a scramble and rapping.

thanks!

kabir

Hey Kabir, I do love my ATC alpine for use with skinny ropes. The Reverso does handle smaller ropes better than the full ATC (and vice versa for the ATC handling bigger ropes better), but I would still be concerned that when using a single strand of a super skinny rope in guide mode, the Reverso's tubes would be large enough to allow the load and belay strands to capsize and defeat the autoblock. The ATC Alpine's tubes just fit skinny ropes like a glove. And I'm not worried about the 16g of difference :)

Full disclosure, one of my main uses of the ATC Alpine is using a super skinny 7.5mm double/twin rope as a single rope for basically the same use case as you described - protecting easy 5th class moves during fast and light alpine scrambles/rappels. It also comes in handy when combined with a skinny glacier rope as a rappel/ascension device during crevasse rescue drills - again, the main concern there is that larger devices allow the load and belay strands to capsize when in autoblock mode, thus defeating the device's autoblock capabilities.    

Thanks, Tim! Just the info I was looking for: didn't think about rope being able to flip in guide mode. 

My initial thoughts were that the alpine atc is meant for smaller diameter ropes and probably deals better with them than the reverso but couldn't find any evidence to back that up. I'll be going with the alpine atc!

I guess the only reasonable thing to do is to offset the 16g by replacing more C4s with ULs...

The DMM Pivot is wonderful.

Tim N wrote:

The Reverso does handle smaller ropes better than the full ATC (and vice versa for the ATC handling bigger ropes better), but I would still be concerned that when using a single strand of a super skinny rope in guide mode, the Reverso's tubes would be large enough to allow the load and belay strands to capsize and defeat the autoblock.

I suppose you could treat it like a ovo/gigi and clip the blocking carabiner through the carabiner attaching the device to the anchor.  Since you can do that, maybe your choice should come down to which orientation you like the device to hang, since they're 90 degrees different from one another.

Adam Fleming wrote:

I suppose you could treat it like a ovo/gigi and clip the blocking carabiner through the carabiner attaching the device to the anchor.  Since you can do that, maybe your choice should come down to which orientation you like the device to hang, since they're 90 degrees different from one another.

I'm not really sure that would quite solve the issues I've had when using my regular ATC with a single strand of skinny rope (7.5mm or so). First, due to the ATC's orientation, clipping the blocking carabiner to the anchor carabiner makes for a weird twist in the carabiners that prevents the carabiner from seating correctly in the device. Its better to clip around the strands. Finally, technically the keeper loop on the ATC is meant to prevent the kind of capsize that you would otherwise see with a gigi. Below is a bit of comparisons using different rope diameters in the ATC alpine vs regular guide. Note, for all of these comparisons I'm assuming the situation is using a super skinny single rope, or a double rope as a single rope, as is sometimes common in low angle terrain.

Fig 1: Clipping blocking carabiner to anchor carabiner - weird twist, the blocking carabiner is not well seated against the device, and ropes still pass each other and "collapse". Load strand is on the left in this pic. Rope is a 7.5mm double/twin rope

Even clipping around the rope strands as in the gigi technique, the wideness of the ATC's tubes still allow the strands to pass each other:

Fig 2: Blocking carabiner clipped around rope. I am holding the load strand, which has squeezed past the belay strand, and while it may not be able to fully collapse, it is quite close. I've had issues while ascending ropes using the ATC as a progress capture device (common in crevasse rescue), and I could imagine one would have problems belaying a second in steep terrain if the rope gets heavily loaded. Rope is a 7.5mm double/twin rope 

When using super skinny ropes, the ATC Alpine gives me the warm fuzzys. 

Fig 3: ATC Alpine vs regular ATC. I'm holding the load strand on both devices. I'm barely pulling on the load strands, yet you can see how the load strand in the regular ATC is already starting to want to squeeze behind the belay strand. Rope is a 7.5mm double/twin rope 

Fig 4: Same comparison but using a mid 8mm double rope (unsure of exact diameter). I start to feel a bit more comfortable using the ATC in this range, although it is still possible for the load and belay strands to pass side by side or underneath each other. The alpine device is perfectly at home here though, it is as if I'm using a mid 9mm rope in the regular ATC.

TLDR, everyone has got their own preferences, and perhaps the Reverso is narrow enough that it doesn't have the same issues that I have personally dealt with when using the ATC and super skinny ropes, but for my personal climbing, when using skinny ropes (8.5mm and under) then I'll most likely also be using the ATC alpine, especially if I'm dealing with any kind of single strand situation.

Adam Fleming wrote:

I suppose you could treat it like a ovo/gigi and clip the blocking carabiner through the carabiner attaching the device to the anchor.

That technique is no longer recommended with the Gigi. If the blocking biner is small and turns itself horizontally (with its gate caught on the hanging biner, for example), it can defeat the auto-blocking.

I didn't know about the other setups (or what a gigi/ovo was) so I learned something (and that I shouldn't use them).

Super helpful to see the visual of the space difference in the alpine atc vs. atc; appreciate that Tim! I'm very used to using atcs in guide mode so keeping the setup consistent seems favourable (without alternate orientation of reverso or dmm pivot). 

With regards to the dmm pivot; lowering the climber from above isn't a huge concern of mine, though i acknowledge in that situation it seems really convenient. 

aikibujin wrote:

That technique is no longer recommended with the Gigi. If the blocking biner is small and turns itself horizontally (with its gate caught on the hanging biner, for example), it can defeat the auto-blocking.

Good to know! Can you share where you've seen that? 

Adam Fleming wrote:

Good to know! Can you share where you've seen that? 

https://youtu.be/MkkFmLoFcFc

Re below: the Pivot’s geometry allows easy lowering in guide mode. Highly recommended!

Another vote for the DMM Pivot. I've had to use the pivot function a few times to get some slack going. Super useful.

Adam Fleming wrote:

Good to know! Can you share where you've seen that? 

If you're asking where I saw the recommended method for the Gigi, it's from the Gigi's user manual. If you're asking where I've seen the blocking biner gets "crossloaded" and defeat the blocking feature, I saw that failure mode myself because it was my preferred method to use with a single skinny rope.

Been using the Alpine guide Atc for a year or so primarily on Beal opeara 8.5 tripple rated.

It locks down when using as a single rope. 

Worked ok with a 9.1 mm rope as well.

I'm a long-time DMM Pivot user (I like it of course) and short-time user of ATC Alpine that I purchased to use with 7.3mm ropes (Beal Gully).  The Pivot does not provide anything close to the friction of the ATC Alpine.  You may or may not like the Pivot for your intended use, but it's "apples and oranges" compared to ATC Alpine. 

pfwein Weinberg wrote:

I'm a long-time DMM Pivot user (I like it of course) and short-time user of ATC Alpine that I purchased to use with 7.3mm ropes (Beal Gully).  The Pivot does not provide anything close to the friction of the ATC Alpine.  You may or may not like the Pivot for your intended use, but it's "apples and oranges" compared to ATC Alpine. 

Thank you for this info!

My needs were the same as the OP's. I needed a belay device for use with up to 10mm singles as well as down to 8mm doubles. My standard ATC guide did not provide enough friction on the 8mm rope in any situation. I considered the ATC alpine and the dedicated Grivel Scream, but went with the Petzl Reverso 5 instead. It's a true allrounder. It worked well in any scenario I could need. I won't go back to the standard ATC Guide. For situations when I need a different orientation I use two opposite and apposed draws and the dogbones' flexibility give me the orientation I need. I have used a DMM pivot and it provide more friction than a standard ATC Guide, but less than a Reverso on skinny ropes. I have brought up 2 followers on 8mm using the Reverso and one follower fell and I was still able to belay the other follower.

Fuzzy images below of how it grabs an 8mm (Mammut Alpine) rope in guide mode competently, in my opinion.

Really appreciate the info/feedback from everyone and especially @Noel Z re: reverso I ended up going with alpine atc and with one alpine climb on it already, am very happy with the choice. Its really nice to have a dedicated belay device for <9mm ropes and alpine climbs. It looks like the reverso does the job which is great if you have one but im glad i shelled out for the purpose-built device. 

For me this ended up as another gear situation where the ideal is having a very specific device/piece of gear for everything but debating between something more general/cheaper/widely available. In this case it made sense to spring for the specific device given prospective usage and cost. Super happy with it so far and glad i have it. 

Glad you found something. I very nearly purchased that same device myself.

The Reverso 5 impressed me with its range of rope thicknesses. With the Reverso I recently climbed on a single and half at the same time. Its range allowed for that. The half/twin was clipped only once during the entire route for a hard to protect runout section. Not a common application, but the device allowed for it all the same. At times like that I could've kissed the damn thing. It's nice to have options.

I live in the EU where nearly everyone climbs on singles. For that reason good belayers on halfs/twins are hard to find. If I lead climb on double ropes, in a twin configuration, I'm not worried about my belayer holding the fall on any device. However, double ropes, in a half rope configuration, is a different kettle of fish as one strand will catch the lion's share of the fall initially. That's why I also own an Edelrid Micro Jul (the blue one) dedicated for use with thinner ropes with brake assist. I only bring it out when I'm on a hard to protect route and I know I'll lead on half ropes to give me placement options. I use it to train partners new to an double rope belaying. If brake assist is your cup of tea, then it's a good device and better than Mammut's Smart Alpine for thinner ropes. It does all things well. Abseiling is not great, but you can flip the device or improvise a handle with a carabiner.

Whatever your device, it can be dropped. Have a practiced strategy at hand to abseil safely on thin ropes, even on a single strand. I've found that a monster munter (with backup) will get you down safely even on a single strand and not twist your rope excessively while doing it. Just watch for sharp edges! Apologies for this unsolicited advice. You can lower a climber with that hitch hitch too off an anchor or harness. The monster munter will flip twice with a change of direction.

To elaborate on my comments i have been using alpine guide atc single strand on 8.5 mm opera for belay and double for rap. 

I wish i had had this instead of regular reverso last time i ice climbed. Great control with alpine guide.

I have also used it with 9.1 and 9.3 mm Blue Water ropes. 

Other larger devices that go up to 10 or 11mmm will not work as well with the skinnys.