This redacted (renaming) routes is out of control!

saign charlesteinwrote:I understand some names of routes are very offensive, but so is a lot of very famous art. You don't see museums renaming and covering up offensive or controversial art. IMO putting up new routes is an art, and the artist has the right to name it what they want to. Freedom of speech. Do I think all the names are appropriate? Absolutely not, but where is it OK and where do you draw the line? I'm offended that this was thought offensive. So does that mean it needs to go back to it's original name? This is a huge can of worms that is just starting and already out of control

Out of curiosity, what are the top 5 most offensive famous works of art? I’d definitely put “Birth of a Nation” and “Triumph of the Will” up there. Not sure about paintings. Does this analogy hold up? Are climbs really like works of art?

I knew he was referring to you.  You've been renaming things ever since I've known you.  MP changes route names all the time without a second thought. Somehow changing them for an apparent cause ( other than self promotion) is something it agonizes over.  The funny thing in the comments for  Slow Children you wrote "About the name of this route, it is "Slow Children", not "Sloe". The name was based on its proximity to City Park."  Thus giving the complainant a hint as to the story behind the name.  Was the complainant unmoved when she/he was told the history behind the route's name?

In any event, I read Zwinters comment and realized it was just the worst kind of silliness.  If MP wants to change the name just change it.  

Hi Darryl, yes I was referring to Jon. No complicated criteria, I just had his contact info. I apologise that I didn't get in contact with the other first ascentionists. I have no opinion or authority on the matter, so I thought reaching out to Jon was a reasonable course of action. I apologise for my comment's silliness. Please keep in mind that I didn't flag the name or request the name change. Luckily it's just an internet database, so nothing is permanent. More than happy to change it back to the original if it's allowed by MP.

Now that MP is exerting editorial control over the platform I wonder if they have opened themselves up to liability should someone get hurt on a route that is inaccurately described.

Say rapping off the end of a 60 rope on a route that is listed as 95’ but is actually 105’

Throw... me... the... ball...

NickMartelwrote:

Now that MP is exerting editorial control over the platform I wonder if they have opened themselves up to liability should someone get hurt on a route that is inaccurately described.

Yes.  But it's not "they" it's Nick.  Since he is the unincorporated owner, he is personally liable.   I pointed out this same issue months ago but was ignored.

John Byrneswrote:

Yes.  But it's not "they" it's Nick.  Since he is the unincorporated owner, he is personally liable.   I pointed out this same issue months ago but was ignored.

Is it really Nick? The TOS indicate otherwise.

Jon Nelsonwrote:

He was referring to me.  

I don't know what to think about all this. But for you, certainly I'd make the change. Or destroy the route. 

I think Slow Children should be left alone. If anything add a comma. Don't change the name over someone flagging what is no way offensive. It even has an explanation. If you give in to something that easily over nonsense it sets a bad precedent.

So tuna boaters is offensive too? What about VOGMET is that offensive too? Sushi farmer?

How about Folsom blues? Maybe I was in prison at folsom and got assaulted, and the name gives me flashbacks. Should that name be changed?

Tang? Is that and orange drink or something offensive?

Agent orange? What if I was in Vietnam and the name bring up bad memories?

The list can go on and on. 

Slow children should not cave to the corporate powers that be.

Although I appreciate Nick’s earnestness and heart, the trend on MP has me thinking about relying more on paperback guides.

I worry about MP descriptions becoming too much of a patchwork of various authors plus the names becoming less interesting / memorable - yeah, I would have kept the name “Limp Wristed Faggot” along with the author’s reasoning for the name.

I’ll suggest MP go back to having the “shared by” role be more than just the first person to post the route. Keep that person as a gatekeeper to changes to the name or to the route description. And if they are not responsive enough for those in power, admins can query others active in the area whether they would like to take ownership. And allow users to suggest a new person for the “shared by” role.

In otherwords, keep driving MP content towards that of the individual users. Only override when there is no other choice.  

The kind of “knee jerk” reactions of late seem to be leading to chaos rather than meaningful change. 

Here are the Redacted routes named Trail of Tears that I am talking about above.  Is the problem that overuse of such names becomes a cliché?  Is it the duty of MtnProj to censor overuse of tragedies as route names?

search results - 14 redacted routes so far, and one wall/area.  https://www.mountainproject.com/search?q=trail%20of%20tears

https://www.mountainproject.com/route/105906426/redacted
https://www.mountainproject.com/route/106519760/redacted
https://www.mountainproject.com/route/108341091/redacted
etc.
https://www.mountainproject.com/area/105906415/redacted

Another Naughty Word:  genocide   too sensitive, must not be mentioned.  7 redactions.
https://www.mountainproject.com/search?q=genocide

Never Again:   https://www.mountainproject.com/route/106648545/redacted

On the other hand, to me, this name seems over the top enough for redacting
https://www.mountainproject.com/route/115411496/redacted

Not everything needs to be sanitized
https://harpers.org/archive/2020/09/nonconforming/

I am also surprised at the redacting of routes called Trail of Tears. There is an NPS Trail of Tears Historic Trail that follows the relocation path. Should it be renamed? It’s a terrible part of American history for sure. I don’t believe the routes named after it are a glorification or celebration of what took place. Honestly, when I climbed Trail of Tears on Wigwam Dome, it spurred me to research and learn more about the history behind the name. I can’t think being more educated about our history would ever be a bad thing. Curious what those of Native ancestry might think about it. Maybe I’m off base.

I named 2 routes after medical conditions related to the pandemic recently, wonder if that might offend someone? I wanted to acknowledge the historical impact and context of what we are living through in this moment. But people might misinterpret and think I was making light of it.

I do worry that we are wandering off into ‘if I don’t speak it or name it, it didn’t happen’ territory. It’s difficult. A poetic turn of phrase or inside joke to one person might have a different context/meaning to another. Especially as language and meanings change.

Success! But the march of justice cannot stop here. Think of the millions, regardless of speed, needlessly harmed when driving past those signs each and every day. Let us demand that all Public Works departments follow our lead and add a comma, hence correcting those hurtful signs littered across our once-great nation. One comma at a time, we can make the world a better place. This starts with us.

saign charlesteinwrote:

...Slow children should not cave to the corporate powers that be.

I don't think it's corporate powers. It's individuals, or groups of individuals. At this point I think it's gone beyond the point of a person being offended, I think some people are looking for things that might offend others even if they are not bothered themselves. 

Rather than pulling out what little hair I have left, I’m going to bed.

Maybe those in favor of this feature could weigh in on whether the above are the kinds of things they had in mind. Or maybe those who waxed on about how Nick was doing too little - are the above in line with what you had hoped? Anyone?

As a slow child I'm disappointed that the climbing community doesn't appreciate me.

I do. Most route names are ok, but the 7th grade boys bathroom ones could have more thought behind them. None have made me feel as if it is a micro aggression is going to make me find a safe room.

Kevinmurraywrote:

I do. Most route names are ok, but the 7th grade boys bathroom ones could have more thought behind them. None have made me feel as if it is a micro aggression is going to make me find a safe room.

I kind of get it.  But sometimes a route name is not so much from 7th grade boys bathroom talk and can actually take an opposite tact . I'd say to give the author a chance to explain his/her self.

One redacted name is "The Mohican". [Admin edit: this is not correct - "Mohican" is not, and never has been redacted.]  Another already mentioned is "Trail of Tears".  Feels like we're wiping something out that really needn't be ... perhaps even worse.  The issue brought up by this thread reminds me of folks who insist the holocaust never happened, or say that native american pictures in a family album should be removed.

Sometimes a name rather serves to encourage us to learn about ourselves or our history ... good or bad.

Bill Lawrywrote:

Rather than pulling out what little hair I have left, I’m going to bed.

Maybe those in favor of this feature could weigh in on whether the above are the kinds of things they had in mind. Or maybe those who waxed on about how Nick was doing too little - are the above in line with what you had hoped? Anyone?

Nick has already made it clear that this is the first, rough band-aid pass until the full, well-thought-out policy is developed and published. He already acknowledged that there will be inconsistencies and mistakes. It's pointless to get all twisted up over which route got redacted and which didn't at this point. 

Unless someone believes that no routes should be redacted at all, then they can go back to those heated threads and keep raging all they want.

Brassmonkey wrote:

“Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped."

Melodramatic much? 

Big Redwrote:

Unless someone believes that no routes should be redacted at all, then they can go back to those heated threads and keep raging all they want.

I was once of that mind set - to not change any names. Best left to another thread.

I simply suspect that the current band aide on the balance may be worse than doing nothing.  

Again, I appreciate Nick’s earnestness and heart.