Guide group and a funny rappel method

Last Saturday I came across a guided group doing some toprope climbing below a ledge at a multipitch climbing area. A few of the climbers were rappelling from the ledge as we came down from a set of anchors above, and I noticed that they were using a method I had never seen before - they were tied in to one end of the rope as you would be when climbing, and they were lowering themselves with that rope using an ATC on the belay loop as you would rig it to belay a climber. Basically, lowering themselves from the anchor. If that makes sense.

It looked perfectly safe, I'm just wondering why the guides would have climbers lower themselves in this manner, rather than a) a real rappel on two strands or b) lowering the climber in the usual way.

Did they all do it this way? If it was just the first person it may have been a way to get both ends of the rope to the ground without throwing it or dealing with the saddlebag method.

It’s a common tactic for guides setting up anchors to self lower so their safety is in their own hands as well it can be smoother for the guide on the way down. If the clients were top roping then doing that it could be a way to introduce climbers to rappelling while being able to provide a very effective ‘firemans’ back up on the ground. I bet this was at looking glass.

Jared Chrysostom wrote: Last Saturday I came across a guided group doing some toprope climbing below a ledge at a multipitch climbing area. A few of the climbers were rappelling from the ledge as we came down from a set of anchors above, and I noticed that they were using a method I had never seen before - they were tied in to one end of the rope as you would be when climbing, and they were lowering themselves with that rope using an ATC on the belay loop as you would rig it to belay a climber. Basically, lowering themselves from the anchor. If that makes sense.

Yes. It's called "self lowering" and, though not commonly used recreationally, is a technique that let's the climber fully control their lower.

Does this technique allow the climber to control their lowering, or allow for a fireman’s belay, in a way that is different from a traditional rappel?

I am not a guide, but I periodically take new climbers out. I am always interested in safer/easier ways to have them do things when the potential consequences are high. 

I F wrote: Did they all do it this way? If it was just the first person it may have been a way to get both ends of the rope to the ground without throwing it or dealing with the saddlebag method.

There was already one person on the ground but it’s possible that person was never on the ledge? I did notice that the guide did a 2-strand rappel when he came down after the client. 

Are you sure that they were lowering themselves? I’m not a guide myself but I know that guides will sometimes fix a single strand to the anchor to have the clients get the experience of rappelling, but they’ll back the clients up on another strand using a munter or belay device. 

https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Self-lowering?ProductName=GRIGRI

Mike G wrote:...so their safety is in their own hands as well it can be smoother for the guide on the way down. If the clients were top roping then doing that it could be a way to introduce climbers to rappelling while being able to provide a very effective ‘firemans’ back up on the ground.

curt86iroc wrote:Yes. It's called "self lowering" and, though not commonly used recreationally, is a technique that let's the climber fully control their lower.

Safety in their own hands...smoother ride...fully control their lower???

If your safety, smooth ride and full control aren't in your own hands while rapelling, you better get a refresher.  

Joel May wrote: Are you sure that they were lowering themselves? I’m not a guide myself but I know that guides will sometimes fix a single strand to the anchor to have the clients get the experience of rappelling, but they’ll back the clients up on another strand using a munter or belay device. 

This is the highly likely scenario. A belayed rappel. Single strand rappel and then using the other strand to lower the client down. Would be very unusual and not standard practice to have the rope moving through the anchor, controlled only by the client with the guide (and other clients?) still at the rappel station. 

Garrett Genereux wrote:

This is the highly likely scenario. A belayed rappel. Single strand rappel and then using the other strand to lower the client down. Would be very unusual and not standard practice to have the rope moving through the anchor, controlled only by the client with the guide (and other clients?) still at the rappel station. 

^^^ this. You witnessed what is known as a “belayed rappel”. The clients where rappelling while being backed up by the guide at the anchor most likely using a munter. A belayed rappel is a safe way to let new climbers completely control their rappel while being back up with a belay. 

Jared Chrysostom wrote: Does this technique allow the climber to control their lowering, or allow for a fireman’s belay, in a way that is different from a traditional rappel?

Common scenario; guide leads up to set top rope they set up top rope and instead of trusting their client to still be attentive and ready to lower them from the constructed anchor they attach their own belay device to set lower out. They’ve removed a potential accident due to inexperience/inattentiveness of a client, which while seemingly insignificant adds to their own safety when doing these outing day in and day out. You may say but if they can’t lower you they’re not going to catch a lead fall and you’re probably right. 
The fireman’s on a self lower is different than a traditional rappel because the rope is actually moving so it takes less force to arrest the rappeller in the event of loss of control. 
A belayed rappel should in my opinion have an Instructor at the anchor for immediate feedback to the client.
I would think you either saw a belayed rappel or whoever set up the anchor self lower. 

ABB wrote: Safety in their own hands...smoother ride...fully control their lower???

If your safety, smooth ride and full control aren't in your own hands while rapelling, you better get a refresher.  

You clearly didn’t understand the potential scenarios. 

To Jared you could always reach out to the guide service and ask. 

Mike G wrote:

You clearly didn’t understand the potential scenarios. 

To Jared you could always reach out to the guide service and ask. 

I will next time, I didn't really process what they were doing until we were back at the car at the end of the day. 

I am sure that there was only one rope involved - I watched the guide do a two-strand rap on it and then belay another client up with the same rope - but maybe he was somehow belaying the client on half of it while the client did a single-strand rap on the other half?

Jared Chrysostom wrote:

I will next time, I didn't really process what they were doing until we were back at the car at the end of the day. 

I am sure that there was only one rope involved - I watched the guide do a two-strand rap on it and then belay another client up with the same rope - but maybe he was somehow belaying the client on half of it while the client did a single-strand rap on the other half?

Hey Jared, as long as the distance from the anchor to the ground is half the rope length or less, that is possible and it’s the most likely scenario. 

Joel May wrote:

Hey Jared, as long as the distance from the anchor to the ground is half the rope length or less, that is possible and it’s the most likely scenario. 

Makes sense - he could have fixed the rope at the anchor and used half to belay the client. 

Thanks for the info everyone, I wish I had just asked the guides but this is almost as good. 

If you’re curious, this is done by fixing the rope to the anchor at its half way point and lowering one half of the rope to the ground. Then, the rappeler ties into the other end of the rope. The guide then puts the rappeler on belay (most likely using a Munter hitch and belaying off of the anchor). At this point, the rappeler can set up their rappel and then unattach their tether from the anchor (assuming they were tethered in). Then, they can rappel down at their own pace while the guide has them backed up on the munter. 

You sure they weren't on a back-up line? As a guide, we use a "releasable rappel" set up. One line, the client rappel line,  goes from the anchor to the ground and is tied off using a munter, munter mule and overhand (MMO). The second line, the belay/lowering line, is tied to the tie-in points on the rappellers harness and they are lowered using a munter hitch or a gri-gri. If something was to happen during the rappel (ie. hair gets stuck, shirt gets stuck, rappeller lets go of rappel line) the guide can tie off the belay line and release the load on the rappel line so the problem can be dealt with. That process is reversed and the rappel can safely rappel again. And there always on a back-up.