Weird loading position when using DMM Rhino autolocking biners with a Grigri

The same thing happened to me with a BD Rocklock and Mammut Smart Alpine last week, and the Smart jammed up. Fortunately it happened when paying out slack for a clip and didn't pull the climber off. 

aikibujin wrote:

I use my right hand for the brake strand with the Grigri. It's just easier and I've had plenty of practice. I also do certain things with my right hand (like writing and using a mouse) because that's how I was taught, so my right hand isn't totally useless. I throw a ball with my left hand, and I've always operated a locker with my left because it just feels more natural. Up till this point it has never been an issue, but it wouldn't take too much effort to get used to operate a locker with my right hand either. With a tube I can belay with either left or right hand, early in my climbing career a mentor gave me a very good reason to learn how to belay with both hands.

I also tie a figure-8 knot in the mirror image of a right-handed person. So I usually don't pre-tie the figure-8 for my partners because it drives them nuts re-threading mine.

I'm strongly left handed as well. I've just adapted to the Gri-Gri and do everything Gri-Gri related right-handed. I think there may be a possible rule floating around in this discussion. Maybe be sure that the gate of ANY locking biner is facing away from the brake hand? Anybody think this could be true? Or not true? I've never though about it until this thread.

Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote: A belay biner that is purpose designed to resist "cross-loading" isn't one of those things we need and only takes advantage of irrational fears (and gear wankery impulses).

I often buy things to reach a free shipping threshold, or because I only have a small amount left on a gift card.

Like I said up-thread, in the wild I do not use a grigri, and in the gym/sport I don't give a darn about cross-loading, but the rhino is a really nice biner, gate is nice and snappy and the lock is smooth as butter. I'd use it for whatever type of belay device you have.

I use a BD Gridlock Magentron and keep it in this orientation, never once had an issue.  Put the grigri on the small side normally designed for your belay loop and put the belay loop on the wide free side.

The added benefit of this is that when you hand it to your partner to belay with it is like a mental warm up exercise to make sure they can figure it out. If they can't figure it out, they do not have the mental capacity to safely belay me.

DRusso wrote: I use a BD Gridlock Magentron and keep it in this orientation, never once had an issue.  Put the grigri on the small side normally designed for your belay loop and put the belay loop on the wide free side.

The added benefit of this is that when you hand it to your partner to belay with it is like a mental warm up exercise to make sure they can figure it out. If they can't figure it out, they do not have the mental capacity to safely belay me.

That Sterling Biner rocks, just like the old Petzl Attaché, round stock, nice to rap on with no sharp edges. 

Victor K wrote:

Maybe be sure that the gate of ANY locking biner is facing away from the brake hand? Anybody think this could be true? Or not true? I've never though about it until this thread.

With the exception of a munter hitch, gate orientation on a locking biner has never been an issue with any belay device I’ve used. Even with this Grigri/Rhino combo, I’m not convinced that the gate orientation makes a difference until I’ve had some time to test it out.

caughtinside wrote: I switched to using a normal size modified D carabiner with the grigri years ago and this has stopped happening.  I get that a larger biner is nicer for things like rappelling with a tube device, but you don't need a larger biner with a grigri.  There is no discernible benefit. 

I used to use a BD Positron locker with my Grigri and it worked. However, like Buck Rio, sometimes I just need to buy one more item to get free shipping (that’s how they get you!), and I’m just attracted to shiny metal things.

caughtinside wrote: I switched to using a normal size modified D carabiner with the grigri years ago and this has stopped happening.  I get that a larger biner is nicer for things like rappelling with a tube device, but you don't need a larger biner with a grigri.  There is no discernible benefit. 

Exactly, Bigger size for belay biners is to accommodate two ropes when rapping and/or a munter hitch. The grigri biner just needs to fit in the hole.

I have a Rhino for my GriGri as well, DMM sent it to me with a new Pivot when I had to send them back a Pivot. I had that happen, then I realized as many others have said, you need to face the gate to the left.  

caughtinside wrote: I switched to using a normal size modified D carabiner with the grigri years ago and this has stopped happening.  I get that a larger biner is nicer for things like rappelling with a tube device, but you don't need a larger biner with a grigri.  There is no discernible benefit. 

This. I use a DMM Shadow. Works fine and never threatens to crossload.

https://dmmclimbing.com/Products/Locking-Carabiners/Shadow

caughtinside wrote:

Ha ha! I am sympathetic to gear lust... except when it comes to $25+ locking biners! No thanks. 

At this point, I basically have doubles or even triples of every gear that I will ever use, so every buy is really an impulse buy. A $25 biner is a heck of a deal compared to some overpriced white powder from a lab (I'm talking about chalk) or $160 fleece with a mountain logo. My kids can still use this biner when they grow up, long after I've inhaled all the F Lab chalk and shredded the R1 to bits... 

An update to this: I tried using the Rhino with the gate facing left for a while, and the same thing still happens on rare occasion. So regardless which way the gate is facing, the gate can catch on the belay loop and load the biner in this weird way. I've given up on the Rhino and went with a biner with a plastic cross guard.

A Petzl Omni solves this problem. 

aikibujin wrote: So I'm not looking for suggestions on what biners to use with a Grigri, I have a couple of biners with a plastic clip across the gate and very happy with them. I'm just trying to raise awareness of an issue with the Rhino autolockers for people who are thinking of buying one, especially since these biners are toted as designed for Grigris to prevent crossloading.

Are they? I don't think they're touted by DMM as that.

The main benefit to the Rhino IMO is the round stock (for smooth rope action) combined with the I-beam stock (for weight savings) on other parts of the carabiner. This is useful for devices like the DMM Pivot or ATC, where the rope runs across the carabiner. The round stock is an utterly pointless waste of weight if you're using the carabiner for a GriGri or another device where the rope doesn't run across the carabiner.

I tend to be with Harumpster on this one: a locking carabiner is quite capable of holding belay forces sideways.

David K wrote:

Are they? I don't think they're touted by DMM as that.

Maybe not in so many words, but here's what DMM says about the Rhino:
"The Rhino's horn prevents belay devices from working their way round the top bar and onto the spine, minimising the chance of cross-loading. The round top bar gives smooth and predictable rope control, while the flat bottom sits well in belay loops, encouraging the Rhino to load in its strongest orientation."
https://dmmclimbing.com/Products/Locking-Carabiners/Rhino

So while you're correct that DMM didn't say the Rhino is designed for the Grigri, this whole spiel is about loading the biner in the "strongest orientation", and anyone can see that the horn will only work with a device with a small attachment hole such as the Grigri, Cinch/Vergo, etc. And since I only use a Grigri, in my mind it translated to that the Rhino is designed for the Grigri.

aikibujin wrote: So while you're correct that DMM didn't say the Rhino is designed for the Grigri, this whole spiel is about loading the biner in the "strongest orientation", and anyone can see that the horn will only work with a device with a small attachment hole such as the Grigri, Cinch/Vergo, etc. 

That's not true. It works pretty okay with the DMM Pivot. I'm not sure why, but I'd guess it's because the pressure from the rope keeps pulling it into place.

And since I only use a Grigri, in my mind it translated to that the Rhino is designed for the Grigri.

But again, the round stock is clearly designed for tube-style devices where the rope runs over the carabiner (probably specifically the DMM Pivot). And again, I care about this because I want smooth rope action, not because of any safety concern, so even if it comes out of alignment occasionally, the horn is a good-enough solution.

If you really care about crossloading, the Rhino is the wrong tool for the job. You can go with the anti-crossloading carabiners that have the small extra gate in the narrow end. But those are an enormous waste of time in my opinion, since crossloading isn't actually a safety concern.

The Rhino came out long before the Pivot. Anyway, here's a TLDR version of the thread: I needed to buy something to fill the cart and get free shipping, so I bought the Rhino because DMM's description led me to believe that it'd be a great locker for the Grigri. Turned out that it does this weird thing with the Grigri so I just want to warn anyone else who's thinking about getting one for the Grigri.

I'm also fully aware that some MP expert has declared that cross-loading "isn't a thing", but I'm not going to stop trying to load a carabiner in the way it is the strongest just because some Internet rando thinks it's ok to cross load a biner. BTW, this is the same Internet rando who insist that you cannot break a locker when I have posted evidence to the contrary.

Of course you should always try to avoid cross loading. It’s not realistic to think you can break a carabiner by cross loading it with a dynamic rope in the system, but it’s still good practice to avoid it happening.

You’re experiencing this problem for two reasons:

1. You’re not timing your jump correctly. If you do it right, and take in rope at the exact same time, then the biner always has enough tension to remain oriented in the correct position. I must have done this a thousand times with a dozen different carabiners (including the Rhino, which I own) and have never had this happen.

2. You bought the 2 and 3 step auto-lockers with giant sleeves over the gate. These are massive overkill in a recreational climbing setting. They are intended to be used in a commercial setting or for arborists or other specialty applications where a screw-lock could be compromised by rope running across the gate.

If you want something to keep devices on the correct side of the biner but also want that biner to be useful for other normal applications, the Rhino is still the best out there. Pretty much every other “solution” to this crossloading “problem” renders the biner useless for everything else and makes it hang wonky on your harness. 

Ryan Williams wrote: 1. You’re not timing your jump correctly. If you do it right, and take in rope at the exact same time, then the biner always has enough tension to remain oriented in the correct position. I must have done this a thousand times with a dozen different carabiners (including the Rhino, which I own) and have never had this happen.

I'm not sure that I agree that this is a solution to the problem. If I'm understanding correctly OP was seeing the problem on rappel, not on lead belay (which is what I think you're talking about--I hope you aren't jumping onto rappel!). However, this brings up an interesting point--I also tend to keep a bit of tension on the rope passing through the belay device, which might account for why I'm not seeing the crossloading behavior, but the OP is.

2. You bought the 2 and 3 step auto-lockers with giant sleeves over the gate. These are massive overkill in a recreational climbing setting. They are intended to be used in a commercial setting or for arborists or other specialty applications where a screw-lock could be compromised by rope running across the gate.

This is really a different topic, but I'm very confused about why you think a screw lock can't be compromised by rope running across the gate in a recreational setting. I've seen my belay biner come unscrewed by rope running across the gate while recreationally climbing at a gym. This was the Petzl Attache, but I see no reason to believe the screwlock Rhino couldn't be similarly compromised.

aikibujin wrote: The Rhino came out long before the Pivot.

Right, but very similar-shaped devices existed.

Anyway, here's a TLDR version of the thread: I needed to buy something to fill the cart and get free shipping, so I bought the Rhino because DMM's description led me to believe that it'd be a great locker for the Grigri. Turned out that it does this weird thing with the Grigri so I just want to warn anyone else who's thinking about getting one for the Grigri.

That's fair.

If you really want to solve the crossloading problem, this style of carabiner is a fairly common solution, but I've always found these carabiners to be extremely annoying to use. Note that with the GriGri, you'll actually want the GriGri attached inside the little mini-gate, not your belay loop inside the mini-gate.

This carabiner is much easier to use, but it's also enormous.

My conclusion right now is that there's not a solution to this problem that doesn't cause much worse problems. Given crossloading isn't really much of a concern, I'd rather just use "regular" biner. I use the dual-action autolocking version of the Petzl Sm'D with the string to prevent dropping the GriGri, and almost never see it crossloaded. When I do, I just reach down and turn it, no big deal.

I'm also fully aware that some MP expert has declared that cross-loading "isn't a thing", but I'm not going to stop trying to load a carabiner in the way it is the strongest just because some Internet rando thinks it's ok to cross load a biner. BTW, this is the same Internet rando who insist that you cannot break a locker when I have posted evidence to the contrary.

I'm certainly not saying Harumpfster is any sort of authority--it seems like I disagree with him more than I agree with him lately. But I think the numbers back him up on that crossloading is a very niche concern. The UIAA is an authority, and they have these things to say:

• The standard for minor axis loading is 7kN (all rated carabiners must have this).
• "A real climbing fall has a maximum force of 5kN." (Admittedly this is a quote of a quote from here, which isn't the best source, but it's consistent with forces I've seen in fall test results.)

So if you believe the UIAA, a standards compliant carabiner should be able to handle a fall while crossloaded without issue.