Fine tuning layering system - softshell and parka

I'm looking for a softshell as well as a belay parka/heavy insulated layer that will work well for climbing in the Canadian Rockies during shoulder seasons and summer. Alpine climbing and some mountaineering in the icefields. Also note that I like to go fast and light. My best day hike in the mountains with a full ultralight pack is 55km with 10k ft elevation (roughly 6k up, 4k down if I remember correctly)

My current top layering options are:
Lightweight Merino or capilene baselayer
MEC T3 Fleece pullover hoody
Arcteryx Atom LT
Needed softshell
Arcteryx Alpha SL 

So far I was thinking of the following options but just looking for recommendations based on your personal experiences.

Arcteryx Psiphon FL Hoody (or the Psiphon SL pullover, but can anyone comment on using a pullover softshell?).
Black Diamond Alpine Start Hoody.
Arcteryx Squamish Hoody.
OR Ferossi. 

In regards to a parka I am very lost as I have never owned one and only borrowed from an oversized friend. There seems to be lots of good options and my first question would be should I go down or synthetic? I'm 90% leaning towards down for the weight savings and packability but since I am new to glacial mountaineering, I'm not sure how to manage keeping the down dry if I need to pull it out for a summit push? (Although seems unlikely from trip reports I've been reading, especially for summer in the Rockies) 

A softshell seems redundant with the Atom LT which is essentially a stretch woven shell with a little insulation. Many people use it as an outer layer in mild conditions. The Squamish is made from similar material. I'd add a light windshirt like a Houdini to your kit instead.

Jackets I like synthetic. Down is fragile and high maintenance. The packability thing isn't tragic on a small item (like it is with say a winter sleeping bag), but some people disagree. What temp range are you going to be dealing with? 

I don't like pullovers for climbing, pain to put on over a helmet. Fine for hiking.

jdejace wrote:

A softshell seems redundant with the Atom LT which is essentially a stretch woven shell with a little insulation. Many people use it as an outer layer in mild conditions. The Squamish is made from similar material. I'd add a light windshirt like a Houdini to your kit instead.

Jackets I like synthetic. Down is fragile and high maintenance. The packability thing isn't tragic on a small item (like it is with say a winter sleeping bag), but some people disagree. What temp range are you going to be dealing with? 

I don't like pullovers for climbing, pain to put on over a helmet. Fine for hiking.

Atom LT isn't durable though like most midlayer synethetic layers.  I would wear a windshell over it or an uninsulated softshell if chimneying is involved.

Jordan Tamborine wrote:

I'm looking for a softshell as well as a belay parka/heavy insulated layer that will work well for climbing in the Canadian Rockies during shoulder seasons and summer. Alpine climbing and some mountaineering in the icefields. Also note that I like to go fast and light. My best day hike in the mountains with a full ultralight pack is 55km with 10k ft elevation (roughly 6k up, 4k down if I remember correctly)

My current top layering options are:
Lightweight Merino or capilene baselayer
MEC T3 Fleece pullover hoody
Arcteryx Atom LT
Needed softshell
Arcteryx Alpha SL 

So far I was thinking of the following options but just looking for recommendations based on your personal experiences.

Arcteryx Psiphon FL Hoody (or the Psiphon SL pullover, but can anyone comment on using a pullover softshell?).
Black Diamond Alpine Start Hoody.
Arcteryx Squamish Hoody.
OR Ferossi. 

In regards to a parka I am very lost as I have never owned one and only borrowed from an oversized friend. There seems to be lots of good options and my first question would be should I go down or synthetic? I'm 90% leaning towards down for the weight savings and packability but since I am new to glacial mountaineering, I'm not sure how to manage keeping the down dry if I need to pull it out for a summit push? (Although seems unlikely from trip reports I've been reading, especially for summer in the Rockies) 

I've seen the FL hoody, it is a great softshell for alpine climbing but doesn't look durable for long use.  I'm biased for cheaper options if you want a softshell weighing under 12 oz.  The only pullover I wear is the R1 fleece.  For the rockies in the summer I would either choose the fleece or the synthetic layer, both is overkill.

If durability is an issue for rock I'd get the Ferrosi and leave the Atom at home. The Ferrosi is tough, inexpensive and has an iron clad warranty, perfect for abusing on rock climbs. The Atom just seems redundant and probably too warm in most temps you'd be rock climbing. Base + fleece + Atom is plenty for ice climbing in the single digits IMO. I'd probably like to have a Houdini in the pack either way if the wind picks up. 

This is what I would wear:

sun hoody

R1 hoody or Atom LT

Uninsulated softshell

synthetic down jacket or a light down jacket like the cerium SV.

bottoms: merino underwear w/ synthetic long johns in the pack, and a softshell pant that can tolerate rock.

jdejace wrote:

A softshell seems redundant with the Atom LT which is essentially a stretch woven shell with a little insulation. Many people use it as an outer layer in mild conditions. The Squamish is made from similar material. I'd add a light windshirt like a Houdini to your kit instead.

Depends on the routes and temps you're climbing in. For alpine rock I'll frequently be climbing in just a base layer T and BD alpine start on the technical pitches mid day, if I wore something like the atom LT I would be sweating which I try to avoid on lead. Early in the morning or late at night on the descent I may throw on insulation over the top of the windshirt. This is more efficient and easier to swap out at belays vs. removing the windshirt to get a fleece under.

I never carry a fleece outside of winter anymore. Actually on most rock routes I don't bring an "active insulation" layer, I simple climb/hike in my belay jacket when needed. 

I love the BD alpine start for a great in between of softshell/windshirt. Closer to windshirt in weight, on the softshell end of durability (I've been using one for 3 seasons of groveling through wide bits w/o tears) and good precip resistance with fast drying. It's the best of both. 

For a belay jacket I'd opt for 80-100gr synthetic fill. A 60gr just isn't warm enough in my experience. If the rest of the rockies are like my bugs trips have been you've got those later afternoon thunderstorms to worry about. 

jg fox wrote:

I've seen the FL hoody, it is a great softshell for alpine climbing but doesn't look durable for long use.  I'm biased for cheaper options if you want a softshell weighing under 12 oz.  The only pullover I wear is the R1 fleece.  For the rockies in the summer I would either choose the fleece or the synthetic layer, both is overkill.

Sorry I should've worded that better. Those are my options and I don't plan on bringing/wearing both ever for summer alpine rock trips.

What cheaper options would you recommend? Always happy to save money!

jdejace wrote:

If durability is an issue for rock I'd get the Ferrosi and leave the Atom at home. The Ferrosi is tough, inexpensive and has an iron clad warranty, perfect for abusing on rock climbs. The Atom just seems redundant and probably too warm in most temps you'd be rock climbing. Base + fleece + Atom is plenty for ice climbing in the single digits IMO. I'd probably like to have a Houdini in the pack either way if the wind picks up. 

I figured the Atom will probably be best for early morning starts on the icefields like Mt Athabasca or Andromeda. (Just going off trip reports I've read and guide recommendations)

Ferossi seems like it could serve the purpose for rock climbing as well as mountaineering in the icefields.

Nick Drake wrote:

Depends on the routes and temps you're climbing in. For alpine rock I'll frequently be climbing in just a base layer T and BD alpine start on the technical pitches mid day, if I wore something like the atom LT I would be sweating which I try to avoid on lead. Early in the morning or late at night on the descent I may throw on insulation over the top of the windshirt.

I love the BD alpine start for a great in between of softshell/windshirt. Closer to windshirt in weight, on the softshell end of durability (I've been using one for 3 seasons of groveling through wide bits w/o tears) and good precip resistance with fast drying. It's the best of both. 

For a belay jacket I'd opt for 80-100gr synthetic fill. A 60gr just isn't warm enough in my experience. If the rest of the rockies are like my bugs trips have been you've got those later afternoon thunderstorms to worry about. 

The atom is more to mountaineering trips on the icefields, but would you think that's still too much?

Any specific belay jackets you'd recommend?

Jordan Tamborine wrote:

The atom is more to mountaineering trips on the icefields, but would you think that's still too much?

Any specific belay jackets you'd recommend?

Atom is probably fine for the mountaineering trips, I would definitely try it out on a few first over buying anything else.

I really liked the original dead bird nuclei for alpine rock, they called it the FL later and now it appears they discontinued it. That was the lightest 80gr jacket I found. Might opt for the rab xenon X now, similar weight but only 60gr insulation. I have a hard time recommending spending much on any synthetic puffy though, they will all loose loft and need replacement in 3 seasons of regular use.

Jordan Tamborine wrote:

Sorry I should've worded that better. Those are my options and I don't plan on bringing/wearing both ever for summer alpine rock trips.

What cheaper options would you recommend? Always happy to save money!

If you can afford Arc'Teryx kit then go for it.  If not go get the BD or OR version and climb with confidence knowing you aren't shredding something that costed a lot.

Nick Drake wrote:

Atom is probably fine for the mountaineering trips, I would definitely try it out on a few first over buying anything else.

I really liked the original dead bird nuclei for alpine rock, they called it the FL later and now it appears they discontinued it. That was the lightest 80gr jacket I found. Might opt for the rab xenon X now, similar weight but only 60gr insulation. I have a hard time recommending spending much on any synthetic puffy though, they will all loose loft and need replacement in 3 seasons of regular use.

They have the Photon series now, I grabbed a Photon AR on clearance and it is a nice jacket, way more durable outside than the atom series.  A more tapered fit though.

with 10k ft elevation (roughly 6k up, 4k down 

Hold on a minute - down vert counts towards the total? Sweeeeeeeeet! 

bttrrtRock Charles wrote:

Hold on a minute - down vert counts towards the total? Sweeeeeeeeet! 

For a day hike why not? If it was a peak bag/scramble that'd be different. This was just an overnighter shakedown that turned day hike because I was way faster than I thought.

Nick Drake wrote:

I have a hard time recommending spending much on any synthetic puffy though, they will all loose loft and need replacement in 3 seasons of regular use.

Any cheaper options out there that have a good reputation? 

Nick Drake wrote:

Atom is probably fine for the mountaineering trips, I would definitely try it out on a few first over buying anything else.

I really liked the original dead bird nuclei for alpine rock, they called it the FL later and now it appears they discontinued it. That was the lightest 80gr jacket I found. Might opt for the rab xenon X now, similar weight but only 60gr insulation. I have a hard time recommending spending much on any synthetic puffy though, they will all loose loft and need replacement in 3 seasons of regular use.

They lose loft if you wash them or compress them too much.  I had a synthetic down bag from 2001 that sat in the stuff sack for over a decade and it was fine when I pulled it out.  For a jacket, just store it correctly and don't wash it often.

I have my Atom LT from 2015, it is fine and still has more use left on it. Unless someone is a guide, it won't wear out that fast.

Synthetic puffies are just cost of doing business. Nobody expects their ice picks or rock shoes to last a lifetime. Buy one you're happy with, abuse it making some awesome memories, replace when necessary. 

You probably don't need a soft shell. Use a windshirt instead. Sell the Alpha FL and buy 2 OR Heliums in fun colours, a roll of duct tape and a case of beer. MEC make a pretty good windshell. If you need a softshell something like the OR Ferrosi or Whirlwind are good light choices. 

You're unlikely to go out climbing if it's raining. So a down parka is fine. If you're worried about rain in the afternoon you slept in.  

So your layering is pretty good. The T3 fleece is really warm which is why I suggest using a windshell instead of a softshell. I do run hot but have never used it except for -15 or colder days. Atom is probably fine for close to the road Icefields stuff, most people use that or an equivalent. 

For example, for a May ski up Andromeda I would wear a midweight baselayer, windshirt, have a synthetic puffy for breaks and a light shell. Perhaps another light down puffy depending on the next days weather.

Also, down vert never counts towards the total in Canada. 

jg fox wrote:

They lose loft if you wash them or compress them too much.  I had synthetic down bag from 2001 that sat in the stuff sack for over a decade and it was fine when I pulled it out.  For a jacket, just store it correctly and don't wash it often.

"Synthetic down"... LOL.

Gunkiemike wrote:

"Synthetic down"... LOL.

"United States Patent 4,588,635 for "synthetic down" was filed and ultimately approved in May 1986."

You know what that product is today? 

Primaloft or otherwise known as synthetic insulation/synthetic down insulation.  Calling it synthetic down is still accurate because it mimics the qualities of down.

Even better to call it that to distinguish it from other synthetic insulations like fleece.