Stuff you don't NEED, learn from our mistakes

My gym membership.

Adrienne DiRosario wrote:

I would say the exact opposite. Try a bunch of brands before you buy a rack of your favorite. Then mix and match your doubles in of other brands that you really like. 

I don't disagree with that. What I meant is don't end up with a Frankenrack. It's confusing enough for a beginner to intermediate trad climber to just find the right size and place it, much less debate between the Metolius, the Alien and the BD, based on their particular strengths. But, sure, try a bunch of other peoples' various brands of cams before you commit $1,000 to buying doubles of your own. 

pga26 wrote:

The intent was to highlight gear we bought because we thought it was needed, but ended up being either a. unnecessary (Ex. two way radios) or b. overkill (PAS). Buying gear is fun, and I think a lot of us fall into the trap of buying stuff we don't need. However, you make a good point. I certainly don't want new climbers holding off on gear they DO need. But, a dedicated sling girthed to the tie in points is a PAS, just not branded that way. I think a lot of great points have been made about learning how to use gear properly and safely. There is always something we could spend $$ on that would be useful (upgraded pro, replacement for worn out harness, new rope, and on and on). So saving a little cash for those things instead of the frivolity is the idea. That being said, I'm currently in a gear funk (I don't need anything right now), so if anyone could please send ideas of things I MUST have, that would be great too :)

I'm all for saving money.  I worry that we are giving advice that amounts to "learn more things all at the same time."  That's not awesome advice. Remember our theoretical beginner is also learning how to place gear and climb and fall and...  "Buy the safest stuff you can, then sell it when you figure out you don't need it anymore," might be better advice.  That money spent doesn't have to all be wasted.  

The questions "what gear do you NEED to climb," and "what gear will make a noob safest" are different questions.  They may very well have different answers in places.

JonasMR wrote:

I'm all for saving money.  I worry that we are giving advice that amounts to "learn more things all at the same time."  That's not awesome advice. Remember our theoretical beginner is also learning how to place gear and climb and fall and...  "Buy the safest stuff you can, then sell it when you figure out you don't need it anymore," might be better advice.  That money spent doesn't have to all be wasted.  

The questions "what gear do you NEED to climb," and "what gear will make a noob safest" are different questions.  They may very well have different answers in places.

+1. I think this is important to mention and the perspective and context for the people on the receiving end of advice is often overlooked. I can think of a lot of gear I don't use anymore but for most of it, I really need/wanted it at one point and I'm glad I had it then.

But here's a dumb gear purchase story:

2 years ago I bought a cam hook, intending to aid a local crack. Little did I realize at the time, that 1) cam hooks can generate huge amounts of levering force and destroy sandstone and 2) I got a 2ish mm thick camhook when what I really needed was an old chouinard crack'n'up. 

Around the same time, I made another really dumb gear purchase. I bought 2 SMC camlocks thinking that the would function as regular old nuts but also have a camming option, similar to hexes. 

reboot wrote:

Sketchiest descent I've ever done (in the dark, w/ a partner that knows the trail, but didn't warn me to bring approach shoes). 

Heheh....full value.

Chalk.

I haven't used chalk since 2011

I'm in a geographically unique place (Boulder), but when there's so many 5.easy and below scrambles, having a good pair of approach shoes is like, mandatory, to up your fun factor. 

Roy Suggett wrote:

Several replies in this thread mention hexes or tri-cams. Unless the person saying this has climbed at *many* areas on *many* different rock types, these responses are incredibly myopic and narrow minded. Yes, in many areas both are of marginal usefulness, yet in other areas they are great supplements as they're lighter and cheaper than cams (eg: hexes in Yosemite) or really do fit better than anything else in a lot of placements (eg: tri-cams in the Gunks). 

The OP needs to learn from others what works best in his local area and proceed from there.

Edit: Oh jeeze - not the OP, but any beginner starting to build their rack. Not caffienated enough when I wrote that.

JonasMR wrote:

I'm all for saving money.  I worry that we are giving advice that amounts to "learn more things all at the same time."  That's not awesome advice. Remember our theoretical beginner is also learning how to place gear and climb and fall and...  "Buy the safest stuff you can, then sell it when you figure out you don't need it anymore," might be better advice.  That money spent doesn't have to all be wasted.  

The questions "what gear do you NEED to climb," and "what gear will make a noob safest" are different questions.  They may very well have different answers in places.

This is excellent JonasMR! Thank you for posting this. Some people, like myself, also like to personally experience what gear works for them such that a lot of this advice is not going to be of any help. I'm glad I didn't follow more experienced climbers opinion of what gear I need to climb, because then I would not have discovered the gear I do like. In addition there is a lot of contradictions in what people think is useful and what others don't think are useful. I personally use hexes, tricams, approach shoes, PAS, anti-cross loading belay carabiners. Which leads into the next quote...

Marc801 C wrote: 

Several replies in this thread mention hexes or tri-cams. Unless the person saying this has climbed at *many* areas on *many* different rock types, these responses are incredibly myopic and narrow minded. Yes, in many areas both are of marginal usefulness, yet in other areas they are great supplements as they're lighter and cheaper than cams (eg: hexes in Yosemite) or really do fit better than anything else in a lot of placements (eg: tri-cams in the Gunks). 

The OP needs to learn from others what works best in his local area and proceed from there.

I totally agree, and it may apply to other pieces of gear to. Good post. Thank you for putting it here.

Marc801 C wrote:

(& Hexes in JTree)

This thing: https://shop.epictv.com/en/slings/beal/dynaloop-83mm?sku=BEAS17_SLINGDYNL_120 

Instead of a nice, svelte, dyneema double length sling, this is is 120cm of 8.3mm dynamic rope that has been spliced into a loop. Bulky as fuck, heavy, doesn't do anything that a sling doesn't and the dynamic elongation of 120cm is pretty much nil.  I can't wait to lose it somewhere. 

anotherclimber wrote:

The four smallest size wired hexes be it Black Diamond , Metolius, or Camp. Nuts and cams in that size are much more useful and quicker to place with less effort. The stiff wire is really the limiting factor as you have to work against the resistence of the wire to get it in it's one of two cammed positions in the crack which is not easy or fast. If they could be slung with dyneema it would likely be better, but this is probably a limitation due to the small size of the hex. I'm aware you can bend the wire, but then it's bent for only one of the two cammed positions. The other limiting factor is the small size of the hex. When they are that small it is awkward to manipulate the hex with your fingers into a small crack. I would guess that is why Wild Country, DMM, and Metolius don't make smaller sizes. As it, the gold #3 and gray #4 Wild Country Rockcentric are my least used of hexes for that set on top of them overlapping larger nut sizes. 

Lol the only use I've ever found for one of my small hexes is on this one climb that has a big horn to sling at the top for an anchor.  The place you want your masterpoint to go though has a small crack that gets thin enough to pinch a cordellette in it so I used one of my smaller metolius hexes to keep it out of the crack.  Was totally not a placement that would have held a fall but worked perfectly for the intended application.  My bigger hexes however have saved my butt many times on an anchor where I didn't have enough cams of the right size to build it.

Also to all those ragging on the PAS, you must not climb in areas where you have to clean bolt anchors and rap often.  It's especially useful for me to have a PAS over a sling lately since I've discovered that you can also use it as a cows tail to extend your rappel without bringing any extra gear up.  Been trying to get in the habit of doing that to make sure I avoid a situation where my autoblock backup could get up into my ATC and get defeated (obviously only happens in a worst case scenario of being knocked out while rapping but better safe than sorry on the most dangerous activity in all of rock climbing).

Christopher Smith wrote:

Lol the only use I've ever found for one of my small hexes is on this one climb that has a big horn to sling at the top for an anchor.  The place you want your masterpoint to go though has a small crack that gets thin enough to pinch a cordellette in it so I used one of my smaller metolius hexes to keep it out of the crack.  Was totally not a placement that would have held a fall but worked perfectly for the intended application.  My bigger hexes however have saved my butt many times on an anchor where I didn't have enough cams of the right size to build it.

Also to all those ragging on the PAS, you must not climb in areas where you have to clean bolt anchors and rap often.  It's especially useful for me to have a PAS over a sling lately since I've discovered that you can also use it as a cows tail to extend your rappel without bringing any extra gear up.  Been trying to get in the habit of doing that to make sure I avoid a situation where my autoblock backup could get up into my ATC and get defeated (obviously only happens in a worst case scenario of being knocked out while rapping but better safe than sorry on the most dangerous activity in all of rock climbing).

You can use a double length sling with an overhand in the middle to do both extension and anchoring.

JonasMR wrote:

I'm all for saving money.  I worry that we are giving advice that amounts to "learn more things all at the same time."  That's not awesome advice. Remember our theoretical beginner is also learning how to place gear and climb and fall and...  "Buy the safest stuff you can, then sell it when you figure out you don't need it anymore," might be better advice.  That money spent doesn't have to all be wasted.  

The questions "what gear do you NEED to climb," and "what gear will make a noob safest" are different questions.  They may very well have different answers in places.

Hey Jonas, I get it, you want to make your own mistakes with gear. Perfectly reasonable and part of the exploration of this great sport. I play with new toys all the time.

But, this is not a "safety thread" this is a thread about a large volume of stuff the gear makers make that is useless, in one person's opinion or another, that time and experience have born out. Take from it what you will and move on....without the PAS lol.

Christopher Smith wrote:

Also to all those ragging on the PAS, you must not climb in areas where you have to clean bolt anchors and rap often.  It's especially useful for me to have a PAS over a sling lately since I've discovered that you can also use it as a cows tail to extend your rappel without bringing any extra gear up.  Been trying to get in the habit of doing that to make sure I avoid a situation where my autoblock backup could get up into my ATC and get defeated (obviously only happens in a worst case scenario of being knocked out while rapping but better safe than sorry on the most dangerous activity in all of rock climbing).

1. I now climb sport routes almost exclusively and I have to clean bolt anchors all the time. A PAS is still totally unnecessary and a cluster.

2. The common ethic in every sport area I've climbed is to lower off rather than rappel except for occasional rare instances, so all that stuff about extending the rap device and autoblocks is irrelevant. 

I take issue with the folks who have advised against purchasing or wearing helmets, or writing them off as being only for beginners.  You can talk to me all day about how unnecessary you think helmets are and how they are only designed to protect against impact from above (i.e. rockfall), but at the end of that day, I'll still be wearing my brain bucket on every machine gun-bolted sport route and easy trad follow from here to Patagonia.  It's a small price to pay for some additional insurance against busting your head open.  9/10 times it probably won't help you, but that one time I need a helmet, I would like to be wearing one.  

I know this has probably been discussed ad nauseam on MP, so I'm not looking to start a new conversation.  I just think it's irresponsible to suggest to beginner climbers that helmets are optional.  There are inherent risks in rock climbing, and one of the most important aspects of our sport is mitigating those risks.  It is up to each individual and his/her partner to manage those risks, and therefore it is up to them to decide whether or not they will wear a helmet.  I am not here to villainize those who choose to forego the use of a helmet, I simply ask that we do not understate the potential benefits of helmets and allow people to make that choice for themselves.  

Below is a link to a project the AAC did in which they collected stories from people who rather appreciated having their helmets on those fateful days...

http://m.americanalpineclub.org/clubhouse/helmets-matter/

Bport wrote:

You can use a double length sling with an overhand in the middle to do both extension and anchoring.

Ya but then you don't get the adjustability inherent with a PAS and you also have to bust a very tight overhand out of the sling afterwards.  I find very often that different anchors are more comfortable to PAS into on different loops on my PAS to be more comfortable while cleaning a route.  Being comfortable while cleaning anchors IMO is just one less thing distracting you while cleaning and distractions can mean mistakes, which with rappelling can be deadly.  And I've never found the bulk of a PAS to be in any way hindering, even when I've got a full double rack complete with a set of hexes and nuts and alpine draws.

Marc801 C wrote:

2. The common ethic in every sport area I've climbed is to lower off rather than rappel except for occasional rare instances, so all that stuff about extending the rap device and autoblocks is irrelevant. 

Around here the ethic on bolt only anchors is to save the wear on the bolts and rap off them.  Plus if they aren't metolius rap anchors I could see that being very bad for a rope.  Maybe your local crags just have cold shuts?

Will Maness wrote:

I take issue with the folks who have advised against purchasing or wearing helmets, or writing them off as being only for beginners.  You can talk to me all day about how unnecessary you think helmets are and how they are only designed to protect against impact from above (i.e. rockfall), but at the end of that day, I'll still be wearing my brain bucket on every machine gun-bolted sport route and easy trad follow from here to Patagonia.  It's a small price to pay for some additional insurance against busting your head open.  9/10 times it probably won't help you, but that one time I need a helmet, I would like to be wearing one.  

I know this has probably been discussed ad nauseam on MP, so I'm not looking to start a new conversation.  I just think it's irresponsible to suggest to beginner climbers that helmets are optional.  There are inherent risks in rock climbing, and one of the most important aspects of our sport is mitigating those risks.  It is up to each individual and his/her partner to manage those risks, and therefore it is up to them to decide whether or not they will wear a helmet.  I am not here to villainize those who choose to forego the use of a helmet, I simply ask that we do not understate the potential benefits of helmets and allow people to make that choice for themselves.  

Below is a link to a project the AAC did in which they collected stories from people who rather appreciated having their helmets on those fateful days...

http://m.americanalpineclub.org/clubhouse/helmets-matter/

Frankly my brain bucket is useful almost everytime I go out as I'm always bashing my head up against something when just on the ground, usually during some approaches.