Adam Ondra versus static hanging

I remember some interview in the last couple of years (on TrainingBeta?) where Adam Ondra said something like  
. . . I never found fingerboard training to be very effective . . .

Looks like this ties with his approach to actual climbing. 

page 191 in Chris Noble's interesting new book, Why We Climb (Falcon 2017):
Adam Ondra says:
" ... for me it's important to keep moving so that one hand can relax while the other is holding -- again and again."

Ken

I feel like that could be true for ondra because he is SO strong. I don’t know if that means that static hangs won’t help the average climber. 

I just (finally) finished the Push, and in it Tommy talked about how Fingerboard repeaters were crucial for him developing the strength to send the Dawn Wall.  Maybe a part of it is the style of climbing?

So sounds like different approaches work better for different top climbers.

. . . (Chris Sharma's training strategy for the past few years is completely from either Caldwell or Ondra).

And likely different training and different climbing strategiies work better for different ones of us middling climbers.

A bit more from Ondra (same page in the Chris Noble book):

" ... holding on for 3 seconds with both hands -- that kills me."

https://www.trainingbeta.com/media/tbp-017-adam-ondra-things-training/

Here’s the Ondra interview you mentioned where he talks about hangboarding not being efficient.

kenr wrote:

Ondra also has a distinctive climbing style, almost feminine in a way. Compare his sinuous moves to the other men, and also to the women in these videos from Udo Nuemann.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3bURXwT4kw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPwmbEjV-LQ

I wish I could climb more like him, tbh. Unfortunately, I have always been pretty stiff and that doesn't get better with age!

Yeah.  I think if you can climb outside every day on crimpy/pockety limestone, you’ll naturally develop strong fingers...but for the rest of us, hangboarding is probably more efficient.  Adam is really big on the importance of technique vs strength, though.  Interesting observation that his climbing is feminine - the greatest compliment you can give a climber is to say “you climb like a girl!”

There's an interesting montage towards the end of the "top females" video wherein the images of female climbers are overlaid on each other, illustrating just how similar their solutions to the boulders were. 

I'd love to see a video of Ondra on the same climbs overlaid in a similar fashion.

Mark E Dixon wrote:

But I don't understand your crusade against hangboards, Ken. If you don't wish to hang, then don't!

Based on reading his posts, my guess is that he is upset that hangboarding couldn't make him anything more than a 5.10 climber.

Actually I do static dead hangs from both hands at the horizontal level from a fingerboard at least twice a week.

I've explained why I do it (as opposed to or in addition to other finger-training methods which are likely better for other climbers.

I don't understand why just because I think there is any other valid approach to training means that I'm on "crusade" against hangboarding.

I don't understand why Mark E Dixon doesn't read by posts more carefully before he makes a negative response.
. . . (or maybe I _do_ understand).

Ken

kenr wrote:

Actually I do static dead hangs from both hands at the horizontal level from a fingerboard at least twice a week.

I've explained why I do it (as opposed to or in addition to other finger-training methods which are likely better for other climbers.

I don't understand why just because I think there is any other valid approach to training means that I'm on "crusade" against hangboarding.

I don't understand why Mark E Dixon doesn't read by posts more carefully before he makes a negative response.
. . . (or maybe I _do_ understand).

Ken

Just seems like whenever you post about hangboard training it’s always negative. 

Maybe I’m just suffering from confirmation bias. 

I wouldn’t have guessed that you were doing any standard hangboarding.

What’s your protocol and what kind of results are you getting?

If I’ve misinterpreted your positions feel free to straighten me out! I’m just trying to get better at climbing and can use all the helpful insights I can find. 

Aleks would be happy

Mark E Dixon wrote: I’m just trying to get better at climbing and can use all the helpful insights I can find. 

Climb like a girl. Or, at your advanced age, an old woman?

Congrats on whenever 61 snuck in, sir! I'll tack that 1 on soon!

The Ondra and "feminine" is actually an interesting point. All of us "middling" (muddling, more like) climbers need to shoot for fluidity and the movement girls gravitate toward (eschewing upper body strength) and the upper body strength men take for granted and rely on (a beginner mistake).

It is already occurring that females are going after that strength, so it will be interesting to see how things develop. At an elite level, males may always outgun females, but for the rest of us? Hmmmm....

Best, Helen

Old lady H wrote:

Climb like a girl. Or, at your advanced age, an old woman?

Hmm, that's interesting.

Off the top of my head, average older women climbers don't climb like girls.

I'll have to watch how some of the better "older" women climb. 

Puccio is wicked strong but still pretty lithe, if IIRC.

Mark E Dixon wrote:

Hmm, that's interesting.

Off the top of my head, average older women climbers don't climb like girls.

I'll have to watch how some of the better "older" women climb. 

Puccio is wicked strong but still pretty lithe, if IIRC.

Exactly. Lynn Hill gets tossed in my face by some on here. She is stronger than most all of us ("power, not reach"), and has been strong for a long time. She's the exception, not the rule, especially for not so young females.

You and I are old enough to remember that girls weren't even allowed in weight rooms, way back in the dark ages. That was for the football team and wrestlers. My high school was an exception to that, because the PE teacher was the girls gymnastics coach. And, her small town team regularly won State. Fancy that.

12a is a solid, strong, climber, male or female, and one I would be watching to learn from, sir. Or just ogling. ;-)

Best, Helen

Old lady H wrote:

12a is a solid, strong, climber, male or female, and one I would be watching to learn from, sir. Or just ogling. ;-)

Mark is just being modest in his profile. I've climbed with him, he can crush much harder than 12a. So he knows a thing or two about training. Unlike some other guy in this thread... ok, unlike kenr, who's probably a 5.10 climber at most (based on his via ferrata trip reports and route comments since he can't be honest about what he actually climbs) yet thinks he's some expert in training because he read some books and papers.

kenr wrote:

A bit more from Ondra (same page in the Chris Noble book):

" ... holding on for 3 seconds with both hands -- that kills me."

TIL I'm a better hangboarder than Adam Ondra.

My understanding of the Ondra interview was that skin was his limiting factor.  But hey, if I could hang off of a 6mm edge with weight added and the only thing that hurt was my skin?  That's pretty good.

Train your weaknesses, project your strengths.

aikibujin wrote:

Mark is just being modest in his profile. I've climbed with him, he can crush much harder than 12a. So he knows a thing or two about training. Unlike some other guy in this thread... ok, unlike kenr, who's probably a 5.10 climber at most (based on his via ferrata trip reports and route comments since he can't be honest about what he actually climbs) yet thinks he's some expert in training because he read some books and papers.

Hey dear, the only reason I have two, a whopping two, .10s on my "tick" list, is because the belayers wouldn't let me down, either time, lol! Top rope, a zillion falls, maybe a haul even. But, they were both fun, funny, and memorable climbs. I got through every bit of the first one, and the second one I was both cleaning and placing gear, french freeing my way up. 

Mark is one I'd enjoy watching, I'm sure! You too, probably. Depressing as heck....but, it helps me stay stubborn about keeping my "try hard" stoked as long as I can possibly manage it.

Best, Helen

Believe me, I'm nothing much to watch.

I appreciate Ken's contributions and hope he continues to make them.

I am curious about his personal climbing grade, because it would allow me a better idea how and whether to incorporate some of his suggestions. 

I'm close enough to aikibujin's abilities that his experience can illuminate mine.

Reboot and Peter Beal, among others posting in the training forum, are much better (and stronger) climbers than me, so I need to translate their insights into something that makes sense at my level.

Among others, Ken's suggestion for offset hang board holds is interesting. Unfortunately I don't have any realistic way to try this with my limited home set up.

Similarly, I have been cutting my campus rungs in half to let me squeeze more options into that same small space. I know Ken has suggested this.

I don't know what to make of Ondra's disdain for fingerboarding. 

He got wicked strong fingers somehow. 

I'd be happy to learn if there's an easier way for me to get stronger that would keep me out of the basement!