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Loop closed half day on xmas


Original Post
l rs · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2012 · Points: 420

Thank you RR for not opening Xmas day till noon. WTF? Anyone know who we can complain to? I was told Katrina somebody....

Nicholas Gillman · · Las Vegas · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 327

  I’m not sure who to contact but this sounds like a really big deal ! Like such a big deal. You should start a mountain project thread to get the ball rolling. 

Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
Leslie McG wrote:

Thank you RR for not opening Xmas day till noon. WTF? Anyone know who we can complain to? I was told Katrina somebody....

You live in Vegas. Is this 5 hours or so really that big a deal to warrant a complaint?

budman · · Moab,UT · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 10

Easy solution is that the BLM needs to open the loop for free for those hours as a Xmas present to the Public.

mediocre · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 0
Marc801 C wrote:

You live in Vegas. Is this 5 hours or so really that big a deal to warrant a complaint?

Absolutely. Its public land. Its hard to remember these days, but they work for us.

Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
mediocre wrote:

Absolutely. Its public land. Its hard to remember these days, but they work for us.

Where is it written that all public lands must be available 24/7/365?

Also, does the loop road being closed for the morning prevent access to any of the climbing?

MrZ · · Colorado · Joined Dec 2010 · Points: 270
Marc801 C wrote:

Where is it written that all public lands must be available 24/7/365?

Also, does the loop road being closed for the morning prevent access to any of the climbing?

Have you even climbed in Vegas? lol


Drederek · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2004 · Points: 315

What The Fuck?  They're making people work on Christmas day?!?!

budman · · Moab,UT · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 10

Marc seems to be more angry than Leslie.  Know of no law or such limiting access 24/7/365.  Drive on existing trails and hike leaving no trace and you are pretty much good.   The paved loop road replaced existing trails and provided easier access to the less outdoorsy types.  You can reach all the climbing areas by hiking but I bet most would not want to walk from the road to the inner parts of the loop on such short days.  Tis the season to be nice to each other and smile a bit more than usual.

John Hegyes · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Feb 2002 · Points: 5,084
Leslie McG wrote:

Thank you RR for not opening Xmas day till noon. WTF? Anyone know who we can complain to? I was told Katrina somebody....

Nicholas Gillman wrote: 

I’m not sure who to contact but this sounds like a really big deal ! Like such a big deal. You should start a mountain project thread to get the ball rolling.

I had not heard that, thanks for the information. If you want to comment on this new policy, I recommend contacting John Asselin at (702) 515-5046. He is contact person listed for BLM Las Vegas in this matter. If he is not the person that made this new policy, I am sure he can point you in the right direction.

Judging by the smart ass responses above (Nicholas Gillman), some people don't seem to care that our access is slowly being eroded in Red Rock. On Thanksgiving last month they closed the loop road toll booths at around noon for the rest of the day. If you were in the loop after that time, you were cleared to remain until normal closing time, so that had little impact on climbers doing long routes in the loop. On Christmas the road won't open UNTIL noon, thus preventing any long routes from being climbed that day - unless you hike in from the highway.

Obviously this does not effect routes at First Creek and southward because loop access is not needed. Hiking in from the highway to Oak Creek adds about 1 mile.

The BLM will say that they have analyzed traffic patterns over the years and found that few people enter the loop Christmas morning - or Thanksgiving afternoon, and those times are difficult to staff for them. I still don't think this new policy is the right thing to do. What about the people that don't celebrate Christmas for example? I think that while Nicholas Gillman is opening presents from Santa Christmas morning, there are climbers that would rather be outside at that time.

I also think that I am hearing about this only 2 days before Christmas, through the second-hand source that is Mountain Project. I would have been really pissed if I drove out there Christmas morning with plans for a long route, only to find the park closed. Ho ho ho!

Honestly, I've been thinking lately that the loop road should be open for much LONGER hours - not less hours. This time of year, when the road closes at 5pm, I really think how ridiculous it is that our public lands close for any amount of time. Look across the Las Vegas Valley at the Lake Mead National Recreation Area. They have toll booths, and steep entrance fees. Yet when the toll booths close you drive right on through. Some would say, "Red Rock is so close to a huge city. Partiers and thrashers would trash Red Rock at night." Well, what about Lake Mead NRA? They seem to deal with it.

Even the late exit permits that climbers have available has been reduced from three hours to two hours.

The fact is fees are under review and may be going up big time at Red Rock. Almost by three times - from $7 to $20 for vehicles. And our hours of access are being taken away from us. I don't like where Red Rock is heading.


mediocre · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 0
Marc801 C wrote:

Where is it written that all public lands must be available 24/7/365?

Also, does the loop road being closed for the morning prevent access to any of the climbing?

It’s public land, our tax dollars pay for it. If the facilities are closed I get that, but there should be free access to public land not being governed by a lease to a lumber company, ski resort etc.

Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
MrZ wrote:

Have you even climbed in Vegas? lol

Yes. And I've hiked in from the highway before the loop road was open on more than one occasion.

Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
budman wrote:

Marc seems to be more angry than Leslie.  Know of no law or such limiting access 24/7/365.  Drive on existing trails and hike leaving no trace and you are pretty much good.   The paved loop road replaced existing trails and provided easier access to the less outdoorsy types.  You can reach all the climbing areas by hiking but I bet most would not want to walk from the road to the inner parts of the loop on such short days.  Tis the season to be nice to each other and smile a bit more than usual.

Not angry in the least. It just seemed that the the road being closed for part of the day on two holidays this year doesn't seem like a big enough issue to get involved compalining about it.

Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
mediocre wrote:

It’s public land, our tax dollars pay for it. If the facilities are closed I get that, but there should be free access to public land not being governed by a lease to a lumber company, ski resort etc.

Sounds like there is still access, just minus the convenience of the loop road for a morning.

mediocre · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 0
Marc801 C wrote:

Sounds like there is still access, just minus the convenience of the loop road for a morning.

I see it as we should be allowed to use a road we all payed for. 

Nicholas Gillman · · Las Vegas · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 327
Judging by the smart ass responses above (Nicholas Gillman), some people don't seem to care that our access is slowly being eroded in Red Rock. On Thanksgiving last month they closed the loop road toll booths at around noon for the rest of the day. If you were in the loop after that time, you were cleared to remain until normal closing time, so that had little impact on climbers doing long routes in the loop. On Christmas the road won't open UNTIL noon, thus preventing any long routes from being climbed that day - unless you hike in from the highway.

Obviously this does not effect routes at First Creek and southward because loop access is not needed. Hiking in from the highway to Oak Creek adds about 1 mile.

Because I don't care about the loop being closed for 5 hours I don't care about red rock access? You nailed it.  You can still hike into the canyons and you can hop over the saddle from red springs to get into the pullouts. If peoples ambition is instantly deflated because they have to hike a bit more ...  then at least in my opinion they werent that motivated to get out in the first place so Im not going to feel sorry for them.

The BLM will say that they have analyzed traffic patterns over the years and found that few people enter the loop Christmas mornig - or Thanksgiving afternoon, and those times are difficult to staff for them. I still don't think this new policy is the right thing to do. What about the people that don't celebrate Christmas for example? I think that while Nicholas Gillman is opening presents from Santa Christmas morning, there are climbers that would rather be outside at that time.

So on a day when people usually dont show up and is hard for them to staff...they should make every effort to staff it...incase a few people show up? Solid logic. In that secnario I think you would be hard pressed to find people that would go climbing rather than open presents that just magically showed up in your house from santa , I was under the impression that santa wasnt real so I feel like I would have to stay behind and unwrap these mysertious presents that showed up in my house but kudos to you and the others that could resist that temptation. Also climbers can still be outside at that time if that want to it isnt a "5 HOUR NO CLIMBING BAN!"

I also think that I am hearing about this only 2 days before Christmas, through the second-hand source that is Mountain Project. I would have been really pissed if I drove out there Christmas morning with plans for a long route, only to find the park closed. Ho ho ho!

I agree that would suck , and I dont know how the BLM pushes this information out there but the first place I saw it was on facebook from an SNCC post. But in checking before repsonding I dont see if on there facebook page or twitter or even on the BLM Nevada website




John Hegyes · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Feb 2002 · Points: 5,084

I don't know if it's a case of devil's advocate or ass-kissery gone awry, but the number of people that defend the BLM at every turn as their service continues to deteriorate totally baffles me. If current trends play out, it will become increasingly difficult to access our public lands to the point of impossibility, and these same people above will just keep on "explaining" or equivocating on these issues until our access is completely impractical or priced-out to unaffordability. 

I also want to point out that in a lot of areas outside the loop, signs have been posted that say no parking from dusk until dawn, so if you plan on hiking the distance into the canyons from the highway, you better plan on getting back to your vehicle by 4:30pm this time of year when it gets dark. Late exit permits do not apply in these areas. Now, BLM-suck ups, "explain" how that benefits climbers. Thanks.

l rs · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2012 · Points: 420
John Hegyes wrote:

I had not heard that, thanks for the information. If you want to comment on this new policy, I recommend contacting John Asselin at (702) 515-5046. He is contact person listed for BLM Las Vegas in this matter. If he is not the person that made this new policy, I am sure he can point you in the right direction.

Judging by the smart ass responses above (Nicholas Gillman), some people don't seem to care that our access is slowly being eroded in Red Rock. On Thanksgiving last month they closed the loop road toll booths at around noon.

I also think that I am hearing about this only 2 days before Christmas, through the second-hand source that is Mountain Project. 


Thank you for understanding the purpose of my post! First was to let climbers know since according to the toll taker its the first time in the " 20 years" he's been working here that this has happened.  Second was to get some information about who to contact. And third was to bitch a bit since yes, the signs were not up yesterday. Two days notice for all the sport climbers hoping for an early burn or any trad climbers, like myself, who already picked out a sunny long climb. First creek and black velvet are too cold/shady this time of year so that leaves alot fewer options for those of us whose "religion" is climbing! 

l rs · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2012 · Points: 420
Nicholas Gillman wrote:

  I’m not sure who to contact but this sounds like a really big deal ! Like such a big deal. You should start a mountain project thread to get the ball rolling. 

I don't know why you needed to be a jerk about this. I do live here and it IS a big deal to me for several reasons. One is that it seems like we have no say in what is going on at all. We got to put in public comment for fee increases, but not for limited access.  Another reason is that by 3:30 it's chilly out. It's also chilly before 9. So now the BLM has taken an already short day and made it even shorter.  Pine is really one of the few places in the loop to get full sun for trad climbers. Yes, I know you can walk i from the road, via Oak to Pine but seriously this really shouldn't even be debatable. We are having our access limited without any input. And the other purpose of my post was to let other climbers know that their plans might have to be adjusted. What a great Xmas present BLM! 

John Wilder · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Feb 2004 · Points: 1,535

I will say that it seems odd for a national conservation area to have limited hours on the holidays. I don't think any NPS areas limit their hours, and Red Rock never has before. We probably ought to see if the SNCC will speak for the community and let the BLM know that climbers are not psyched on this change. 

Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
John Hegyes wrote:

I don't know if it's a case of devil's advocate or ass-kissery gone awry, but the number of people that defend the BLM at every turn as their service continues to deteriorate totally baffles me. If current trends play out, it will become increasingly difficult to access our public lands to the point of impossibility, and these same people above will just keep on "explaining" or equivocating on these issues until our access is completely impractical or priced-out to unaffordability. 

I also want to point out that in a lot of areas outside the loop, signs have been posted that say no parking from dusk until dawn, so if you plan on hiking the distance into the canyons from the highway, you better plan on getting back to your vehicle by 4:30pm this time of year when it gets dark. Late exit permits do not apply in these areas. Now, BLM-suck ups, "explain" how that benefits climbers. Thanks.

Out of all the possible federal entities that could manage and operate an area like Red Rock NCA, the BLM is probably the least well suited. My comments were directed simply at the small problem of the loop road being closed for a half day on an overall low-visitation day. The other stuff you mention here and what some others have said are certainly much bigger and more important issues. 

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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