Transition to rappel

Consider the following:

Self belaying.

2 rope top rope anchor system.

Using ascender on one rope and petzl shunt on the other as a backup.  System as suggested by petzl.

QUESTION: What would be a method to transition to a rappel from a "dangling" position (e.g. no viable hand/foot holds)?

Thanks!

Put you weight on the shunt. Tie Oh Sh:t knot in rope two feet below the shunt. Affix ATC to other rope below the ascender. Put rope grab knot (prusik, klemheist etc) above the ascender, attach 4 ft sling to this and step up into it. Remove ascender from rope. Pull slack up through ATC. Sit back onto ATC (hand on brake strand; affix autoblock if desired). Remove rope grab knot. Remove OS knot. Remove shunt. Rappel.

Your weight will likely be largely on one strand or the other, i.e., not on both at the same time.

Put your rappel device on the.unweighted one. An assisted braking device, such as a Gri Gri or Cinch works better than an ATC.

Put a runner on your ascender and jug the rope, while pulling slack through the rappel device. (this where the assisted-braking device makes much easier) You probably won't need to ascend more than a foot or two.  When you can sit back and all your weight is on the rappel device, then you can remove the ascenders and rappel down.

Thank you, to the speedy repliers!

I put a sling with a locker through the master point carabiners when setting up the rope, so that when reaching the anchor I just clip into the sling, pull the anchor to unweight and slide the progress capture device(s) down the rope, and put weight back onto the sling.  From there thread your rappel device, pull on the anchor & raise the rappel device until you can fully weight it, then unclip from the sling and rappel, using an autoblock as desired.

Gunkiemike wrote:

Put you weight on the shunt. Tie Oh Sh:t knot in rope two feet below the shunt. Affix ATC to other rope below the ascender. Put rope grab knot (prusik, klemheist etc) above the ascender, attach 4 ft sling to this and step up into it. Remove ascender from rope. Pull slack up through ATC. Sit back onto ATC (hand on brake strand; affix autoblock if desired). Remove rope grab knot. Remove OS knot. Remove shunt. Rappel.

I think this scheme of mine - aside from being needlessly complex - just won't work if there's more than a couple feet of stretch in the ropes. You won't be able to unweight one strand and move to the other without some serious jugging antics.

So how about this simpler process: Tie OS knot 3-5 feet below the shunt, clip this to your harness (belay loop), remove shunt. Attach ATC below the ascender, clip ATC to harness (attach autoblock if desired). Use rope grab knot to attach 4ft sling above the ascender. Step up on sling, remove ascender, pull up ATC slack, weight the ATC. Remove ropegrab/sling and OS knot. Rappel. 

UBU has a good suggestion, but it doesn't address your "dangling" situation.

Gunkiemike wrote:

I think this scheme of mine - aside from being needlessly complex - just won't work if there's more than a couple feet of stretch in the ropes. You won't be able to unweight one strand and move to the other without some serious jugging antics.

So how about this simpler process: Tie OS knot 3-5 feet below the shunt, clip this to your harness (belay loop), remove shunt. Attach ATC below the ascender, clip ATC to harness (attach autoblock if desired). Use rope grab knot to attach 4ft sling above the ascender. Step up on sling, remove ascender, pull up ATC slack, weight the ATC. Remove ropegrab/sling and OS knot. Rappel. 

UBU has a good suggestion, but it doesn't address your "dangling" situation.

The approach I described actually works ok (but not great) even when you're hanging in space, but you've got to put some work into the unweighting process.  To make life easier when there aren't any foot holds, I sometimes add a long sling to the anchor to stand up in whille unweighting the rope.

ubu wrote:

The approach I described actually works ok (but not great) even when you're hanging in space, but you've got to put some work into the unweighting process.  To make life easier when there aren't any foot holds, I sometimes add a long sling to the anchor to stand up in whille unweighting the rope.

The difference is that I took OP's "a "dangling" position (e.g. no viable hand/foot holds)" to mean something like failing/bailing mid-pitch. Your scheme is limited to top-of-the-pitch changeover. If the climber was able to reach the top, clearly there are holds available.

But good to hear lots of solutions to different situations, as anyone getting into solo TR had better know what to do, whatever happens.

Another option is to attach your primary rope grab with a radium release instead of a lanyard. When you want to lower off, rig your DCD and dog it, then lower off your ascender with the radium release. Bump your shunt down so it doesn't take the weight.

If you only have one strand weighted, you can put a gri gri on right below the weighted device. Use an alpine butterfly at thigh height on the unweighted strand as an oh shit knot that has a loop big enough for your foot. Step up on the butterfly and pull slack through the gri so you are sitting on it. No need for anything extra if you have two strands.

James Lantz wrote:

Consider the following:

Self belaying.

2 rope top rope anchor system.

Using ascender on one rope and petzl shunt on the other as a backup.  System as suggested by petzl.

QUESTION: What would be a method to transition to a rappel from a "dangling" position (e.g. no viable hand/foot holds)?

Thanks!

Well if you have two ropes it should be pretty easy actually.

1. Weight your ascender.

2. Put your decent device on the back up rope and connect it to your harness.

3. Take up the slack and weight your decender (which in effect will unweight the ascender).

4. Double check everything, disconnect your ascender and shunt and rap down on the back-up rope.

Surely this is one of those things where if you have to ask then should you really be doing what your are doing?  If you are self belaying then then surely you should be adept with the tools required and the problem solving require otherwise it sounds like you are well out of your depth.

I say this in the context of not immediately having an concise answer to your question.  Never been there or done that.   But it is all basic stuff.  30seconds of thought should have you on your way to a solution other wise why are you putting yourself in that position?

(As pointed out above your scenario is even easier to find a quick solution as you have two ropes!)

Gunkiemike wrote:

The difference is that I took OP's "a "dangling" position (e.g. no viable hand/foot holds)" to mean something like failing/bailing mid-pitch. Your scheme is limited to top-of-the-pitch changeover. If the climber was able to reach the top, clearly there are holds available.

That's a good point.  

In that case it comes down to basic self-rescue technique (made easier by the presence of two fixed lines and two progress capture devices).

Lisa Luedtke "Lage" wrote:

Hi there Gunkiemike, I use the first process you described.  I just wanted to add these points.  1. TR Soloing over an overhang is less than ideal and should be avoided.  The nature of an overhang prevents setting up a good TR solo system.  Fixing the rope at the base of the wall could prevent an ascender from camming properly in the event of a fall due to the angle of the climber's body/direction-of-weight (or you have a freely dangling heavy backpack constantly pulling you off the wall).  So, I only TR Solo on vertical walls with a vertical climbing line under the anchor.  I can usually omit the prussik step that you described by stepping up on the wall itself.  (Sometimes there aren't any feet, so then I would use the prussik step.)  2. TR Soloing should only be done with a static rope for several reasons.  The stretch of a dynamic rope makes setting up the bottom anchor with the correct amount of tension very difficult.  It decreases the diameter of the rope when weighted which could cause a flat camming ascender to not cam properly.  The travel distance of the ascender due to stretch could put the rope into distress if you're using a toothed ascender because it will shred the casing and then core of your rope if there is much force in the fall. (Hopefully the climber is using a chest harness to reduce this fall force as well.)  Also, it is really annoying to have to keep reclimbing the same 3ft due to rope stretch!  

Thanks for your thoughtful responses.  Be safe on your adventures and keep climbing!!

I have no idea why you're making a bottom anchor for TR solo. It serves no purpose and can only cause trouble e.g. if you want to traverse off to the side, maybe for a rest.  And as for toothed devices not working when the rope "flattens out", don't you think the manufacturers would pick up on that? These things DO work on the diameters they are made for. And your fear of them destroying the rope? C'mon, that's been debunked so many times. It's up there with microfractures and magnetic wrist bands. But you are free to continue doing what you like...

Gunkiemike wrote:

I have no idea why you're making a bottom anchor for TR solo. It serves no purpose and can only cause trouble e.g. if you want to traverse off to the side, maybe for a rest.  And as for toothed devices not working when the rope "flattens out", don't you think the manufacturers would pick up on that? These things DO work on the diameters they are made for. And your fear of them destroying the rope? C'mon, that's been debunked so many times. It's up there with microfractures and magnetic wrist bands. But you are free to continue doing what you like...

Maybe they are getting confused with TR Rope Solo vs Lead Rope Solo. When lead rope soloing you have the rope anchored on the bottom of the route and often people will pre-tie backup knots that have to be untied while leading as you get to them. If you are tope rope soloing it is ideal to tie a backup knot if you get to a safe stance while climbing and are able but anchoring the rope to the bottom isn't something you should do.

PAS (even a quickdraw works) into a bolt or the knot going to your TR anchor. Now your weight is on the PAS you can do whatever to get something on the rope for a rappel. BTW keep the shunt on the line and it makes a perfect rappel backup.
This talk about overhanging blah blah blah is silly. If the route wanders or goes over a really gnarly roof you just place a few quickdraws to manage the rope and either pass them or remove them on the way up or down. If somehow you fell and dangled you can ascend with more gear or just tie a bight of rope into a foot loop and stand up, the devices you are using are progress capturing (unless it is a grigri or other ABD). I am omitting a ton of stuff here that I assume is common knowledge.
Over-weighting the rope is again silly and turns into a fireman's belay on rappel.
I am all for a climber using a proprietary system, but some ideas are overly complicated which lead to more chance of errors.
This should be in the beginners forum?

Floyd Eggers wrote: PAS (even a quickdraw works) into a bolt or the knot going to your TR anchor. Now your weight is on the PAS you can do whatever to get something on the rope for a rappel. BTW keep the shunt on the line and it makes a perfect rappel backup.
This talk about overhanging blah blah blah is silly. If the route wanders or goes over a really gnarly roof you just place a few quickdraws to manage the rope and either pass them or remove them on the way up or down. If somehow you fell and dangled you can ascend with more gear or just tie a bight of rope into a foot loop and stand up, the devices you are using are progress capturing (unless it is a grigri or other ABD). I am omitting a ton of stuff here that I assume is common knowledge.
Over-weighting the rope is again silly and turns into a fireman's belay on rappel.
I am all for a climber using a proprietary system, but some ideas are overly complicated which lead to more chance of errors.
This should be in the beginners forum?

You are literally attached to two ascenders. If you don't know how to jug up a fixed line, you have no business being on TRS. If you can't transition to rappel while jugging a fixed line, you have no business being on TRS.