how not to build a toprope anchor

Thank you for not taking pictures of the anchor set up and passive aggressively critique it online... oh wait

Skye Swoboda-Colberg wrote:

Lol, an American Death Triangle in Africa...

You won't hear this in any of your euro-centric climbing history books, but ALL American Death Triangles were originally African Death Triangles.

Stop WHITEWASHING history, people!

The rock around the right bolt does look slightly suspect, like maybe it's a block that is detached?  And its position near the edge is a little weird too, like maybe it's just meant as a directional to keep the rope out of the crack? Anyway clipping the old SMC just as a bonus might not have been a terrible idea. I doubt the crossloading on that locker is too significant though. 

rafael wrote:

I felt the slings, only the one was loaded, and it was getting worked constantly by the many people toproping

If I set up a TR for a bunch of kids and saw someone come by finger fucking my anchor....it might not play out so passive aggressively.   

Did you talk to them or just snap a photo to feel empowered over the feckin noobs who didn't read the same anchor book you did?

Modern bolts are designed to take substantial outward force (Power's five piece 1/2" bolt is 21Kn outward).  If you ever get a chance to look at any modern bolt, look how it is designed to expand with outward force.  I climbed in Spain and tried to climb some of the fantastic inverted limestone walls.  I can attest after falling and hanging a lot that the bolts did not come out.

I can see why two carabiners in a situation like this isn't helpful as the OP noted.  If the top one is loaded it could create a mechanical lever on the hanger.  Having pulled a lot of old bolts I could see how this could pop out an old bolt like possibly that third bolt.  However I wouldn't worry about a new bolt/hanger. Still, that is why we use two bolts - sometimes you don't think about stuff like this.  

How about the webbing on the single biner? Might not be ideal the way it's draped over a sharp edge. Repetitive sawing is what seems concerning in this first photo

This isn't really a good example of how not to build a top rope anchor but it is an example of how to talk out of your ass. 

Guys we need to talk about the real problem in those photos ! The slackline at the crag! People might be having fun!

Ted Pinson wrote:

Why wear one bullet-proof vest when you can wear two?

A smart climber always wears a belt and suspenders.

Mike Mellenthin wrote:

Hey Boulder people, explain this:

yo is that tree UIAA-rated 

Hobo Greg wrote:

Would it even be that much? Body weight plus a little bit is what I tell the kids I belay at camp.

maximum force would be about 2x body weight assuming the top rope anchor acts like a pulley and neglecting any angular dependence

edit: im an idiot this is wrong

Alan Zhan wrote:

maximum force would be about 2x body weight assuming the top rope anchor acts like a pulley and neglecting any angular dependence

Slingshot top rope, has the weight of the climber, weight of the belayer plus a little friction for spice

Mike Mellenthin wrote:

Hey Boulder people, explain this:

BOMBBBERRRRRRR

Mike Mellenthin wrote:

Hey Boulder people, explain this:

Look fine to me. Overkill on the lockers.  Could slide it a little lower on the tree for less leverage.

rafael wrote:

yes, and those falls typically put downward force on the bolt, and usually not with such a constant stream of falls.

This biner was put such that it was torquing the bolt with outward force. And why? two biners on the same bolt? it makes no sense, the second biner on the bolt is worse than pointless

Can you please draw a diagram of how the lateral and downward pull of the sling on the bolt was generating "outward" force, by which we would mean force pulling the bolt OUT of its hole and away from the rock? Is there an invisible lever in this photo?

Maybe they were bringing up a large inexperienced party?  Leader pre-rigs belay and cloves followers in rather than having each person carry his/her own biner for going direct.

It's not textbook, but I would trust it with my life, especially for something with as low impact forces as a bunch of kids top rope climbing.

Not sure what the extra locker and sling are for, if they are even part of the anchor (maybe a safety line or something?), but without seeing the masterpoint and how the bolt on the right side of the photos is being utilized, I would be hesitant to criticize this anchor.

Redundancy is more important than equalization or no extension, and assuming the bolts are well placed and secure they should be totally bomber, so as long as you have a back-up it really shouldn't be a big deal if one of those bolts is taking most of the weight.

AAC just put out an article about anchors that mentions the point of intentionally loading the strongest pieces in an anchor. There's a whole thread about it here:

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/113456950/new-aac-article-on-anchors

Seems like the anchor sucks, but you aren't showing the masterpoint and did you even talk with the group "leader" given your serious amount of concern? I agree with everyone here that it's unlikely that anything would happen to that anchor, even if the two slings just clipped separately (no knot as masterpoint) to a single locking biner things would still likely be okay (though even more subpar). On the other hand, I'm also with you OP in the sense that the kids' parents probably don't understand there are serious dangers the leader likely can't address. Talk with any rock guide that takes kids out and they'll tell you that pick-off scenarios are not uncommon. Who knows whether the leader has any kind of rescue skills should a kid get stuck or injured? Judging by the anchor, probably not, or at least not skills I'd trust my kids with. All that said, there's too little information to either shit all over OP or all over the leader.

The funny thing about you MP guys is that if the OP had posted the same picture in the context of him making the anchor and said something like, "Some buddies and I went TRing and I had a blast! I can't wait to go again." Everyone here would be like, "GTFO before you kill yourself or one of us." 

Rick Lewis wrote:

Slingshot top rope, has the weight of the climber, weight of the belayer plus a little friction for spice

Ah I stupidly assumed that the belayer would only apply the force necessary to stop the climber... and I neglected friction as I normally do. Was never too good at classical mechanics

physnchips wrote:

Seems like the anchor sucks, but you aren't showing the masterpoint and did you even talk with the group "leader" given your serious amount of concern? I agree with everyone here that it's unlikely that anything would happen to that anchor, even if the two slings just clipped separately (no knot as masterpoint) to a single locking biner things would still likely be okay (though even more subpar). On the other hand, I'm also with you OP in the sense that the kids' parents probably don't understand there are serious dangers the leader likely can't address. Talk with any rock guide that takes kids out and they'll tell you that pick-off scenarios are not uncommon. Who knows whether the leader has any kind of rescue skills should a kid get stuck or injured? Judging by the anchor, probably not, or at least not skills I'd trust my kids with. All that said, there's too little information to either shit all over OP or all over the leader.

The funny thing about you MP guys is that if the OP had posted the same picture in the context of him making the anchor and said something like, "Some buddies and I went TRing and I had a blast! I can't wait to go again." Everyone here would be like, "GTFO before you kill yourself or one of us." 

Nice hyperbole.  The only instance I can see MP turning on newbies for having a sloppy TR anchor is if Helen posted it.