Ideal difficulty for skill-enhancing "projects"

Hi there,

I'm trying to figure out how hard should a route feel when projecting, although I guess I don't quite mean projecting.For me at this point, the goal isn't to send the hardest grade I possibly could after 1000th attempts. I am basically trying to figure out the best balance between:

• Working on moves & sequences harder than I can currently link reasonnably quickly
• Getting on many different routes to keep on practicing route reading skills, including using those skills at my limit (and not just on easy routes I'm likely to onsight)

To try to pinpoint what I'm trying to say, let's say I've worked on a route that is at my limit half a dozen time (including a good amount of hand-dogging the first 2-3 attempts before I get on it for real). I feel that the sequences are dialed, but I still fall let's say once every attempts, combination of pump & sequences that are precarious for me and that I don't succeed every attempt. My thinking at this point is that I'd rather restart the process on a new route of a similar difficulty, rather than attempt this one a couple more time to actually link. In other words, I think the benefits of working on a new route are greater than repeating a couple more times to send a route that I'm close to sending.

Or am I working on grades that are a bit too easy to really help me improve? Would the above be better framed if I said something more along the lines of " I've worked that route a dozen times over 2 days, and still can't quite see how that I am close to redpoint"?

What criteria do you use to determine the appropriate level at which to work a route?

There are a couple of issues here, and everyone is different.  One thing to keep in mind is how your climbing form is at your limit.  If your form, focus and technique dissolve at your limit, then working problems at your limit just reinforces these bad habits.  If that is the case, then it is probably better to back off to the point where you are working on hard routes, but doing it with good form.  That may be a letter grade easier, it may be full number (YDS).  You can also make a conscious effect to work on good form or some other aspect of your climbing, even with easier routes.  When I climb 10s in the gym, I really try never to match hands or feet on a hold.  I want to figure out how to move through a sequence making it intentionally more difficult.  It also makes me plan out moves in advance, so I may skip a couple of closely spaced holds and grab the one that will put me in the right sequence so I don't have to match moving out of that sequence.

Personal preference obviously... I really like the redpoint pyramid approach, both in terms of how to progress your climbing grade, but also in terms of ratio of easy/hard routes I'm choosing  to get on.

By pyramid I mean the following: Say, your goal is to redpoint a 12d. And you have, so far, only climbed two 12b's and three 12a's, but that was recently, within the past 6-8 months. Yes, you can probably find a 12d that suits your style, get on it, and after gazillion attempts send it. But a better approach is to pick a set of routes:

1 12d-- your goal
2-12c's
4-12b's -- you already have 2, so two new ones
8-12a's -- you already have 3, so 5 new ones.

And then get on them. You don't have to do it in order-- you don't have to send your 5 new 12a's before you attempt the 12b's and 12c's. Get on half a dozen 12c's or d's and find the two that you like, but spend time on those easier climbs, and send them, too. The pyramid sort of gives you a ratio of easier climbs vs harder climbs to try.

And I think it is important when getting on the easier climbs at the bottom of your pyramid to choose routes that aren't necessarily "your style". IMO nothing improves your skills better than that. The climbs much easier than the base of your pyramid-- sure, climb them, and enjoy it. but if you have been climbing for a while, the routes much below your onsight ability might be too easy for you, and wouldn't do much to help you progress (the caveat, of course, is IF YOU'VE BEEN CLIMBING FOR A WHILE and don't have other issues that impede your ability to progress. There is a lot of value in climbing easier routes, beyond just simple enjoyment, if you are not solid on leading/clipping, if you are recovering from injury, or if there are any mental issues you are trying to get over)

Oh, and also... I think there is a big difference in how "pro's" approach projecting, vs how I approach it.

I remember watching Mark Anderson work a 14b (or c?) in St George area a few years back. It was his first time on the route, and the first crux was low, under a roof only couple bolts up, so I got to see it in detail. He wasn't sticking the moves, not even close. But he also wasn't even trying to stick the moves, most of the time. It was... the best I can describe it, he was just trying different body positions, maybe? And he spent a LOT of time on it.Over an hour at that lower crux, a lot of that time going in-direct and touching different holds, and then trying some more body positions. I think he was on that route for well over two hours total.

To me, it looked impossibly hopeless. I would have given up a long time ago, if there were multiple moves in a row that looked so hard that I couldn't even link two! But when he lowered, I asked what he thought about the route, and his response was along the lines of "I think it will go, I'm encouraged".

Encouraged? Really? Yep! Detasils are hazy, but I think he tried that route just one more time the same day. Took couple days off, came back another day for couple tries... took another couple-days break... And after that he sent. And I still don't understand how.

Lena chita wrote:

Personal preference obviously... I really like the redpoint pyramid approach, both in terms of how to progress your climbing grade, but also in terms of ratio of easy/hard routes I'm choosing  to get on.

By pyramid I mean the following: Say, your goal is to redpoint a 12d. And you have, so far, only climbed two 12b's and three 12a's, but that was recently, within the past 6-8 months. Yes, you can probably find a 12d that suits your style, get on it, and after gazillion attempts send it. But a better approach is to pick a set of routes:

1 12d-- your goal
2-12c's
4-12b's -- you already have 2, so two new ones
8-12a's -- you already have 3, so 5 new ones.

And then get on them. You don't have to do it in order-- you don't have to send your 5 new 12a's before you attempt the 12b's and 12c's. Get on half a dozen 12c's or d's and find the two that you like, but spend time on those easier climbs, and send them, too. The pyramid sort of gives you a ratio of easier climbs vs harder climbs to try.

And I think it is important when getting on the easier climbs at the bottom of your pyramid to choose routes that aren't necessarily "your style". IMO nothing improves your skills better than that. The climbs much easier than the base of your pyramid-- sure, climb them, and enjoy it. but if you have been climbing for a while, the routes much below your onsight ability might be too easy for you, and wouldn't do much to help you progress (the caveat, of course, is IF YOU'VE BEEN CLIMBING FOR A WHILE and don't have other issues that impede your ability to progress. There is a lot of value in climbing easier routes, beyond just simple enjoyment, if you are not solid on leading/clipping, if you are recovering from injury, or if there are any mental issues you are trying to get over)

Listen to Lena.

Hi Lena,

I didn't know about that pyramid of redpoint and I do like the idea. Makes a lot of sense to me. I'm breaking into 12s right now, so the description you just gave is pretty well tailored (or perhaps I could take it down a letter or 2).

Fully agree about routes that aren't my default style, especially for the "base" of the pyramid that also really makes lots of sense. Although I think naturally I tend to gravitate towards whatever the classics of the crags are, so I do get a good mix of styles that way.

Interesting comments about Mark Anderson - I really don't feel like I'm at that level, I mean regardless of grades I think you have to feel like you are an incredibly dedicated and experienced climber to start a project where you can't even link a full sequence yet. I'm not even sure I would like to approach climbing this way - I like the route-reading & the delicate balance that onsight demands (in terms of finding optimal/best sequence, but also not making a career out of it so you pump out). I've only been recently starting to move away from also exclusively climbing onsight to thinking about working projects. Which prompted this question, as I realized I'm kind of clueless about projecting. The one thing I would take away from Anderson however is that hand-dogging it is OK. I've initially been very reluctant to do that and tended to lower & restart instead... but then if the goal is thougher moves at your limit, you get more time doing that if you handdog than if you don't. 

Jake Jones wrote:

Why not just climb harder routes with harder sequences and skip the semantics and contrived altering of how an easier route climbs?

I do both.  I can't climb at my limit all the time, I am old and get tired.  So I mix in easier pitches and try to make them a little more challenging.  It forces me to think on the route and plan more, so when I get on harder stuff, I am able to recognize sequences earlier and have more practice going cross overs, gastons, and other moves that you have to do if you refuse to match on easier routes.

When I am doing multi-pitch routes, the stuff I climb is generally a mix of hard sections with cruiser links.  So I want to be able to work the hard stuff, but still have the endurance to do the rest of the route.  I could work nothing but 11ds and 12as in the my gym, but I would probably end up hangdogging on 2-3 routes and be done for the day.  I mix in hard and relatively easier routes, I work on clipping with both hands, I play around with footwork, and, you know, I try and have fun.

My larger point was that you shouldn't just climb at your limit if you can't practice good habits while working at your limit.  Sure, try harder stuff than you think you can do (if you can do safely), but if your technique goes to hell, then all you end up doing in reinforcing bad climbing technique.

Lena chita wrote:

He wasn't sticking the moves, not even close. But he also wasn't even trying to stick the moves, most of the time. It was... the best I can describe it, he was just trying different body positions, maybe? And he spent a LOT of time on it.Over an hour at that lower crux, a lot of that time going in-direct and touching different holds, and then trying some more body positions. I think he was on that route for well over two hours total.

To me, it looked impossibly hopeless. I would have given up a long time ago, if there were multiple moves in a row that looked so hard that I couldn't even link two! But when he lowered, I asked what he thought about the route, and his response was along the lines of "I think it will go, I'm encouraged".

There is definitely a difference between a pro and an avid hobbyist.  Your description put me in the mind of SCUBA photography.  Ever since I was certified, I have rarely ever dove without a camera in my hand.  I have lots of really good pics that I am very proud of, some perhaps worthy of publishing, but I am miles away from being a pro.  I take photos when I dive, a pro dives to take photos, and there is a huge difference.  I have an image I bought from one pro and he took almost an entire dive in one spot shooting one fish to get the one image he sold.  Even if I had come across the same scene when I was diving, I would have spent at most a few minutes there, and then moved on.

Good beta from Lena. One thing I'd add is that sending can be an important skill to train in itself, so don't write off the value in putting in those extra burns to actually get the redpoint.

At that point you might know you're physically capable of sending, but there can still be a lot of focus required to execute the sequence and keep it together til the chains. It's worth practicing the mental side, too. 

Franck Vee wrote:

Hi there,

I'm trying to figure out how hard should a route feel when projecting, although I guess I don't quite mean projecting.For me at this point, the goal isn't to send the hardest grade I possibly could after 1000th attempts. I am basically trying to figure out the best balance between:

• Working on moves & sequences harder than I can currently link reasonnably quickly
• Getting on many different routes to keep on practicing route reading skills, including using those skills at my limit (and not just on easy routes I'm likely to onsight)

To try to pinpoint what I'm trying to say, let's say I've worked on a route that is at my limit half a dozen time (including a good amount of hand-dogging the first 2-3 attempts before I get on it for real). I feel that the sequences are dialed, but I still fall let's say once every attempts, combination of pump & sequences that are precarious for me and that I don't succeed every attempt. My thinking at this point is that I'd rather restart the process on a new route of a similar difficulty, rather than attempt this one a couple more time to actually link. In other words, I think the benefits of working on a new route are greater than repeating a couple more times to send a route that I'm close to sending.

Or am I working on grades that are a bit too easy to really help me improve? Would the above be better framed if I said something more along the lines of " I've worked that route a dozen times over 2 days, and still can't quite see how that I am close to redpoint"?

What criteria do you use to determine the appropriate level at which to work a route?

Anything you can hangdog on but make it to the top is probably within your climbing limit. It just means you really need to dial in the moves or maybe work on some endurance but if you are getting all the moves the difficult of the moves is not the problem. It is generally helpful to look for climbs of style that you struggle with and work on those because if you struggle with a type of climbing that is likely going to be a weakness for you on any right you run into it on even if it is a 20ft section of a 100ft route.

I am generally lazy and don't project rope routes only bouldering (because you can't do them from start to finish since there is no rope) so generally if I make it to the top with a couple hangdogs I don't go back and climb it again for a while and have to relearn it or can later climb it easy from increase in skill.

You can't really go by grades when it comes down to letter grades. Everywhere you go will generally be slightly off from another crag or state and based on your style of climbing if you are like me I have fallen on a 5.10 and than onsighted a 5.11 sitting right next to it and thought it was a joke. So it although grades give you a good starting point it is best to just climb it especially when traveling to new areas to figure out what grade range works for you there.

There is alot more to climbing than just grades I train to climb hard so I have more options when at an area not because I normally go climb at my limit. I climb routes that look fun to do the grade doesn't matter to me I don't care it can be 5.4 or a 5.11 if it looks fun to climb I will go for it.

Franck Vee wrote:

I really don't feel like I'm at that level, I mean regardless of grades I think you have to feel like you are an incredibly dedicated and experienced climber to start a project where you can't even link a full sequence yet. I'm not even sure I would like to approach climbing this way - I like the route-reading & the delicate balance that onsight demands (in terms of finding optimal/best sequence, but also not making a career out of it so you pump out). I've only been recently starting to move away from also exclusively climbing onsight to thinking about working projects. Which prompted this question, as I realized I'm kind of clueless about projecting. The one thing I would take away from Anderson however is that hand-dogging it is OK. I've initially been very reluctant to do that and tended to lower & restart instead... but then if the goal is thougher moves at your limit, you get more time doing that if you handdog than if you don't. 

As for not linking full sequences, I think that depends on the style of rock. Some routes/rock are just very beta intensive and you're more than mentally and physically capable of figuring out that crux. The change of approach to going bolt to bolt and truly hang dogging it could be a drastic change in your climbing.  I just went from your approach to really *working* a project this spring. The largest change for me going from onsight focus to a project was that asl the moves were sorted there is no time spent looking around for feet or pondering what position to use, you just get to flow. I went from a very static style of climbing to moving much faster and using momentum when appropriate. My goal was getting from one rest to the next as fast as possible with no pump (that was the only way mine was going down, the crux was a stout V4 section far up the route and steep, no way could I pull it pumped).

The first thing I would say for a project is that you better be psyched on it for more than the grade. Whether it's aesthetic, style, the crag, ease of access, you have to really want to be there or it's not going to work out. 

For the grade itself, what do you boulder? How hard is the crux? How high is the crux? How sustained?
For me I could flash some steeper V4 boulder problems. I knew that with beta wire I could do a 12a that had a crux that hard once I got efficient on the beta. Breaking it down in difficulty of boulder problem sequences is the easiest way for me to think of this.

Ask others for beta, watch others on the route, try any beta you can think of. I went through 5 different ways of trying the crux sequence before I settle on one.

Write down everything, every move, when to clip, when to rest, when to chalk. You'll remember the route better this way and be less likely to blow it on the easy part.

Work the finish to death. Have it dialed, climb it and lower, do it over and over without a break. Have it down when you're pumped out of your mind.

Get a partner who is psyched on the same project or another at the crag. You don't want to feel guilty for hanging forever. Don't bring your significant other to belay unless they are working something or you're sending them flowers at work.

When it comes time for the red point don't waste energy when it's too hot or you're tired. Get the conditions right, don't be a slave to it.

Have fun.

More great thoughts on the art of dogging from a local crusher who REALLY likes working hard projects:

http://www.erichsachs.com/2014/12/02/the-art-of-dogging-2/

In short: any.

Climbing is a sport of many skills. Some skills are to be developed on sub-onsight level routes only, some on onsight level, some on a bit above onsight level, some on around the best RP level, and some on above the best RP level.

Easier routes are to develop a broad skillset, harder are to deeply work out a narrow set of skills (often it is all about working out just one move).

Upd. The thumb rule. If you do not want to climb a route should be in your reach jump on it and work it hard to send it.

Pavel you absolutely should refrain from writing tutorials or any kind of DYI guides....

Kidding - yeah I think you're right, it does train different things. I've been mostly onsighting and I think it shows in my climbing style - even when projecting (which is not always so good). I think while project, I don't really put enough effort to memorizing sequences - unless it's the crux, I always kinda tend to remember the base idea (move fast there, keep right, bring feet high) but not really dial precise sequences.

I've decided that for the most part, the pyramid is going to be my guide, for anything that is going to be a project "within the trip", so maximum a number of attemps over a a couple days/week.

Then I've also added a way over the top, too hard for me project that I give myself a year to send (or be decently close to send). I call that the Anderson approach. I decided to go for Predator in Rumney, which is about a whole number grade above my current project level. But then I have a year and can plan training in a tailored fashion so...

Franck Vee wrote:

I've been mostly onsighting and I think it shows in my climbing style

I had been mostly onsighting and had been pretending it shows my climbing style since 2013/2014 winter just to realize about a year ago that it was just a well constructed wishfull thinking to avoid climbing hard. Basically I had been avoiding working my weeknesses out. Bad idea.

Franck Vee wrote:

while project, I don't really put enough effort to memorizing sequences

Here is the key. The key to mastery is to pay a lot (I mean it - a LOT) of attention to the tiniest details and to subtles. At first it is seems like impossible to spot and to use those microscopic foot holds or those slicky rock features or whatever else, then it becomes possible but hard, then thru dozens tries it becomes possible, and one day you feel they are good enough. The key here is if you lack the first step (discovering and trying those seemingly absurdly rock features) you have no chances to spot and to utilize those fine details in the future, thus you have no chances to master your skills up to the next level.

Projecting is all about attention to those previously unusable rock features and to those previously unutilized movement patterns. Even if one fails on a project spotting and trying to utilize those subtle features and effort to use 'em is a key to the future performance gain. Because under stress of climbing situation our mind is able to spot and utilize only familiar rock features and previously trained skills. If one has never even tried to utilize such a tiny foothold there are no chances theirs brain would be able to even spot it. If one has never tried that high stepping move in a real rock climbing situation there are no chances theirs brain would be able to even figure it out under stress of onsighting.

Personally I love to set up a solo TR and literally grope every square inch of rock along the line in search of anything could be of use, and immediately give a try to utilize any feature even the most absurdly ones. Sometimes it makes a huge difference - small shitty handholds become perfect jugs to shake out and chalk up, near impossible clips become nice and comfortable. For sure it translates to better onsighting - better trained mind could spot and utilize more features being stressed.

I think people tend to go too hard or too easy. I think at your level you're best suited for mini-projects that take 1-5 goes. You might get lucky and get a super hard-fought OS, but most likely you're going to get the thing done in 3 or so tries. Your first go might be a total hangdog, but take an hour (and find a partner willing to swap long belays) to suss the beta. You might surprise yourself and go from a 6-hang 1st go to a 2nd go hat trick send, so long as you reinforce sequences as your learn them. 

By keeping your redpoint campaigns short, you get the best of all worlds: Skill acquisition on many different routes (rock type, angle, hold type), redpoint tactics (beta, on-route rest tactics, off-route rest tactics), and mental "growth-zone" exposure without going into fight-or-flight mode when overwhelmed with a mega-hard route with multiple sequences seemingly out of your league. I used to target the latter sort of route, and I would often eventually send, but I feel like routes that are taking more than 10 or 15 tries, assuming this is your usual mode of operation, are keeping you too far away from the growth zone and limiting your exposure to more routes, moves, etc. That being said, you occasionally need to do what you're not already doing. If you only project, you need some volume, and if you only climb for volume (sounds more like you), it's time to sink your teeth into something harder.

Sean mcColl recently posted a training video where he was campusing on holds so bad he could barely hang on them.  When I asked him what possessed him to try this, he said “You’ll never know if you don’t try!”  I think that it can be easy to put a certain grade on a pedestal and create self-imposed mental plateaus.  Grades are a guideline and don’t always scale accurately; you might have an easier time on a 12a that plays to your strengths than a stiff 11c.

Tangential question - to what extent is progress on a sustained project pitch the result of developing the requisite power-endurance? And is working on such a project* an effective way to train P-E? (I know, as in all things training-related there is likely a better, more specific regimen for P-E. But is the project itself doing anything?) 

* I'm talking about a project where one can do each move and short sequences, but just can't quite get it all due to running out of gas up high.

Gunkiemike wrote:

Tangential question - to what extent is progress on a sustained project pitch the result of developing the requisite power-endurance? And is working on such a project* an effective way to train P-E? (I know, as in all things training-related there is likely a better, more specific regimen for P-E. But is the project itself doing anything?) 

In my opinion, the short answer is no, working a very hard project isn't an effective way to train power-endurance.

The long answer is, it depends on where you are in the process of working a project. For majority of that process you're improving your efficiency on the specific sequence for the route. Only at the end of the process when you’re linking long sections and making solid redpoint attempts you’re getting some PE training as well.

Gunkiemike wrote:

Tangential question - to what extent is progress on a sustained project pitch the result of developing the requisite power-endurance? And is working on such a project* an effective way to train P-E? (I know, as in all things training-related there is likely a better, more specific regimen for P-E. But is the project itself doing anything?) 

* I'm talking about a project where one can do each move and short sequences, but just can't quite get it all due to running out of gas up high.

I think working on the project itself IS helping you to develop the PE necessary for sending that project.

But this statement comes with a caveat. I think that ONLY getting on the project that you are working on, and not doing other things, will get you weaker overall. My reasoning is, if the project is hard for you, all you have on that project is maybe 3-4 attempts in a day, and you are done. And that's not enough to cause efficient muscle adaptation, if all you do is 3-4 attempts on a route every other day. It will eventually get you to a send, but it may not be the fastest way to send, and may not get you stronger overall.

If you are alternating these project days with days of climbing high volume at onsight grade, or doing 4x4s, bouldering pyramids, and so on, getting on your project once or twice a week for 3-4 attempts is going to help you fine-tune both the PE and the movement that you need to send, but not limit you to ONLY the movement and PE you need for this specific route..